TLDR: Being a working mom is a difficult balancing act, with emotions often ranging from guilt to joy. But with the right approach, it is possible to find inner peace and a sense of fulfilment in both work and family life.
Being a working mom is a difficult balancing act. Embracing the present moment, as advocated by the Buddha and his many disciples, can be a powerful tool in helping working moms to deal with feelings of guilt.
By focusing on the here and now, and taking time for self-reflection and mindfulness, working moms can learn to appreciate the unique joys and challenges of both motherhood and their career.
While working momsโ guilt happens more often than fathersโ guilt, these principles can be applied to fathers who experience the same feelings too!
The guilt we feel as a working mom and why it is a problem
As a working mother, one might experience guilt for many reasons.
One of them is feeling torn between the desire to continue working, and having mixed feelings over leaving oneโs child with the maid or at the child care centre, for your child will be pleading for you to be around.
At work, you completely forget that you are a mother, and at 6 p.m., you need to rush off to pick up your child but all of your colleagues are still working; the guilt sets in for not being a full-time stay-at-home mom or a team player.
Also, stay-at-home momsโ guilt is just as real – you worry that you arenโt helping out with the household income.
When you lose your temper, you feel inadequate because you regret that moment you yell at your child and you aren’t the perfect, calm mother you should be.
As you may have discovered, guilt often seems to come and go with no rhyme or reason. So, while you may feel guilty at certain times, you may also feel guilt-free at other times. These shifts are completely normal.
Your feelings of guilt could also be a sign that you are trying to be someone you are not. Guilt, when experienced in excess, can result in feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem. This can be dangerous for working mothers because it can make it far more difficult to accept and appreciate all that they do.
The opportunity for balance
As a working mother, you put up the utmost effort to live up to all of the demands placed upon you, only to discover that you frequently feel terrible for not being the ideal mother, wife, daughter-in-law, daughter, or coworker.
This is perfectly normal, of course, but you may be trying to do it all “right.”
For example, late-night meetings eat into the quality time with your child; you feel burnt out from juggling work, family dinners, and housekeeping; trying to live up to your spouse’s expectations; or you could never be there for your mum’s doctor appointment.
However, guilt, when driven by societal norms, is rarely helpful. To find balance, it is helpful to remember that being a working mother is not something to feel guilty about,
since it is a perfectly valid and worthwhile way to bring in income while maintaining a close relationship with your children.
Moreover, keep in mind that despite the fact that work and family life often come with challenges, they are also opportunities.
One should be aware that it is difficult to accomplish everything, even in all the mentioned situations above. Sometimes, we just need a helping hand, from siblings, our parents, or even our helper.
It is about learning what your priority is, and choosing what is important to you, including self-care.
Appreciating Both Motherhood and Your Career
One of the most important ways to deal with guilt as a working mother is to appreciate all aspects of motherhood and your career.
For example, if you feel guilty because you are not sharing enough quality time with your children, remember that you do not have to spend all your time with them. It is important to reframe your idea of self-care. This is similar to putting the oxygen mask on yourself first before putting it on your child in any aeroplane emergency.
As with any aspect of your life, being a working mother can bring with it both joys and challenges. Keep this in mind as you strive to find balance in both your working life and your family life. Working mothers should recognize that it is okay to feel pride in both their career and their motherhood.
As a working mother, it is important to accept that you are doing something incredibly valuable for both society as well as your family.
How the Dhamma helps
Dealing with guilt as a working mother can be facilitated by the Dhamma. One important Buddhist concept is mindfulness, the practice of being fully present in the here and now, without rushing through life or getting bogged down in thoughts about the past or future.
When working mothers turn to Buddhism, they often find a sense of reassurance in the teachings on impermanence and the ephemeral nature of all things.
Sarah Jacoby, a US associate professor of Tibetan Buddhism, shared something that resonated deeply with me, โMotherhood can be the ideal practising ground for working with anger, nurturing compassion, and coming to terms with impermanence, pain, and grief.โ
Buddhism teaches compassion for all living beings and we should show compassion to ourselves too.
Everything in the worldโincluding both career and motherhoodโis subject to change. One helpful reminder to working mothers is that guilt is often associated with the urge to hold on too tightly to any one thing. That leads to immense suffering if we try to be ideal moms on Instagram and fall short of that image.
If we do not take care of ourselves, we cannot take care of our kids and partner. As the Buddha pointed out in Sedeka sutta, โBy looking after oneself, one looks after the otherโ.
We cannot pour from an empty cup. I share some practical tips below on how you could try to deal with that guilt.
Practical Tips for Working Moms
Make time for yourself and your thoughts, thatโs being kind to yourself and giving your heart space for self-compassion. Write a list of positive thoughts to counteract the ones that fuel your negative thoughts. Or, you can write down the tasks you have to do, and break them into bite-size tasks which are less overwhelming.
Prioritise self-care, and take care of your inner child. Take a day off once a month just to do what you like to do when you were younger and later had no opportunity to do.
Be accepting of the ups and downs of career and motherhood, and remember that you are not alone.
Recognise and accept healthy guilt and find support through friends, family, and mentors. Speak to your partner about the role they can play in easing your load!
Catch the tendency to slide into thoughts about what an โideal momโ should be like; reduce social media usage if you find that itโs a source of endless comparison
Develop a mindfulness practice (e.g. 2 minutes of meditation before the kids wake) or a short walk home without music. These moments create space to dissociate yourself from the crushing expectations that might be created in your mind.
Live in awareness of the present moment so that you can stop reacting destructively to your spouse and children.
Donโt be afraid to apologise to your children (or spouse) when you are in the wrong.
Tell yourself, you are a โWork in Progressโ to be that better person and mother you want to be.
Remember the nature of impermanence, and know that whatever situation occurs at work or at home, it shall not last.
Taking time out for yourself and for self-reflection can be a valuable way to keep guilt in check while ensuring that you are balanced and ready to take on new challenges.
Conclusion
There is a common misconception that working as a mother is something “guilty.” This, however, is not the case. Working mothers can embrace the present moment, and find the balance between career and family life, by cultivating the Dhamma practice of mindfulness and compassion.
Guilt can be a frustrating and difficult emotion, especially when experienced in excess. As such, it can be helpful to turn to a technique, like meditation, that emphasises acceptance and non-judgment.
When working mothers engage in practices that cultivate acceptance and non-judgment, they are more likely to experience feelings of liberation and forgiveness. This makes it easier to turn towards the positive attributes of work and family life, like appreciating both motherhood and career.
Remember that all phenomena are interdependent,
โThe thought manifests as the word;
The word manifests as the deed;
The deed develops into habit;
And habit hardens into character.โ
-Wise Sayings
So watch the thoughts arising from your mind, and know that you have done your best!
We are all โworks in progressโ.
Wise Steps:
Remind yourself to take time off for personal care and not feel guilty about feeling guilty
Apply one of the ten practical tips to reduce mental suffering as a working mom
Find social circles that can help you through difficult times!
Low Mi Yen, a clinical psychologist and one of Malaysiaโs foremost proponents of the application of psychology, mindfulness and self-compassion, for individual, couple, family, workplace and community, for more than 27 years. Pioneered Employee Assistance Program (EAP) in Malaysia since 1999, providing corporate training, coaching, crisis intervention, psychotherapy, psychological assessment, lecturing and supervision, mindfulness and self-compassion interventions in enhancing resilience.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Kai Xin:
Hi, welcome to another episode of the Handful Of Leaves podcast, where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
Is ignorance bliss?
You know, in the process of wanting to be a good person or being taught to be a good person, we learn how to identify right from wrong. And we are also reminded of moral conduct and standards and thus become increasingly cautious of our own actions, sometimes fearing the consequences or you’ll feel ashamed if we were to fall short.
So wouldn’t it actually be better if we remained ignorant? We’ll be happier, right? In this episode, we will talk about how the fear of wrongdoing and shame can actually lead us to peace. I know it sounds paradoxical, which is why we have our guest today Sister Miyen and also my co-host, Cheryl, to talk about this because we know fear and shame, they are very unpleasant feelings. So how is it possible that it can result in peace?
And is it really true that these mental qualities can pave the way to enlightenment?
A lot of big questions and this episode is going to be very educational. So without further ado, let’s dive right in.
Hi. Good to see you, sister Mi Yen. I’m joined with Cheryl to chat with you today.
[00:01:20] Sis Mi Yen:
Thanks for inviting me, Kai Xin and Cheryl, to join you in this wonderful series of podcasts with interesting topics to share with your listeners. So I’m actually very happy and excited to have the chat with you today.
[00:01:34] Kai Xin:
Yeah, definitely. Today’s subject is quite interesting because we’re gonna talk about fear and shame. And there is this term in the Buddhist scripture, which is Hirฤซottappa. We’re gonna unpack a lot of that to see where these two words fit into our life? Because I think in a religious context, we sometimes feel like, oh, I’m not a good enough Buddhist, I did something wrong. Then there’s the sense of shame and guilt, but it can get to a point where it’s not so beneficial and I personally in the past have a lot of misconceptions about it.
Just for our listeners, a brief background about Sis Mi Yen, who’s on this podcast with us today. She’s a clinical psychologist who spent more than 27 years helping individuals, couples, families, to teach them how to be a better person, either in a form of leadership or in a form of managing crisis as well as emotion. She also does psychotherapy.
I do wanna start off this episode with our first question. You know, in our modern world, there are a lot of distractions and vices. I would say that a lot of people would agree that it’s quite challenging to be a good person, because sometimes, people shout at you, they do certain nasty things and the tendency is, oh, I wanna fight back, or I wanna hurt another person.
So how do we actually not be triggered by all these temptations or these responses and end up hurting others? How does Hirฤซottappa come into the picture, and this sense of fear and shame?
[00:03:03] Sis Mi Yen:
Like you said, we are not doing justice to our topic itself, especially these two very important mental qualities in our short podcast today. So I’ll try my best to unpack as much as I can. It is a difficult practice. Today I’m speaking more as a Buddhist practitioner rather than a professional psychologist. From the Buddhist perspective, I myself, personally, find that in our Buddhist teaching, Hirฤซ and Ottappa, these are the twin mental qualities that are present in all of us. And these mental qualities, they are associated with skillful action. At times they’re referred to as the two superheroes that protect the world or the guardians of the world.
If you Google Hirฤซ and Ottappa you’ll see all these words popping up. These are very important mental qualities. It actually helps us to make right choices in life. How do we act? How do we speak? How do we think? Hopefully, in a helpful, healthy, and skillful way for us to uphold ourself as a human being, especially our moral conduct and of course in Buddhist practice, the importance of keeping the precepts. So, these two mental qualities are huge. I’m not sure whether you would like me to delve into the definition because sometimes the definition itself can cause a lot of misunderstanding too.
[00:04:22] Kai Xin: I see Cheryl nodding her head. We would agree that it’s good to maybe just define what exactly is Hirฤซ and what is Ottappa in short, and then we can slowly unpack and clear some of the wrong views or misconceptions.
[00:04:34] Sis Mi Yen:
Yes, Hirฤซ refers to the inner conscience refraining us from doing deeds that would jeopardise our self-respect, honor and dignity as a human being. In a way it’s an inner ability to see unwholesomeness arising as shameful or wrong. This is where different terminology has been used to translate the Pali term Hirฤซ. We have moral shame as one of the main one. But I think the English translation, moral shame is a bit tricky. I really like the ability to see unwholesomeness as shameful, our awareness of the value of human being.
Ottapa on the other hand, refers to a healthy fear of wrongdoings. I don’t want to do this unwholesome action because by doing this, I’m gonna bring harm to myself and others. That means the ability to actually reflect on consequences. As human beings, we do have responsibilities and awareness of our action, kamma and so forth. But a lot of the English words that describe ottapa, they use the word moral dread or moral fear.
I prefer to just use Hirฤซ and Ottappa, having a clearer understanding of the actual definition. But again, it can cause a lot of misunderstanding from the English term itself.
[00:05:56] Cheryl:
Yeah, I think the words fear and shame are very intense words. It elicits a very negative reaction. In our day to day, you’re trying to avoid fear and shame. I really like how you rephrased it as the ability to see unwholesomeness as shameful. It really helps us to reflect on the actions and behaviors that are actually very dirty in nature, that’s why it’s shameful, rather than us having that shame that perhaps comes from wrong conditioning.
[00:06:21] Kai Xin:
I would like to share an example to illustrate Hirฤซottappa, you can correct me if I’m wrong. You mentioned that it’s something that we innately have, Hirฤซ, a sense of shame or conscience. We know what exactly is wrong or right.
So, there was one day my mom when she was fetching my niece from preschool, she’s around four years old. She’s a little bit out of character. Very unusually quiet. And then my mom kind of noticed that something is amiss and then she found out that my niece has taken from the preschool, a Lego and then she put it in her arms. She kind of knows that she’s not supposed to do it, but she also doesn’t wanna tell. So there’s a little bit of like, okay, what if I get found out, you know? Like, will my mom scold her? Will her mother scold her? And what’s the consequences? Which kind of led her to also be not so vocal about what is wrong. She probably have taken it by accident and then only found out about it afterwards.
So I thought that’s particularly interesting because at such a young age she already knows that taking things that is not hers is not so right. So would that be an example of Hirฤซ?
[00:07:31] Sis Mi Yen:
In a way. I think your niece has gone into another experience. The Pali word that I can recall is Kukkucca. It is actually the guilt and remorse happening. I think this is again, very, very natural. A lot of us have this frequent misunderstanding. We get Hirฤซottappa quite mixed up with Kukkucca, remorse. So actually Kukkucca is the feeling that arises after the bad action has been committed. So your niece has taken the Lego. It’s actually committed already, that’s why it is already Kukkucca.
Whereas, Hirฤซ and Ottappa are actually the conflict in our mind and the feeling that arises before the bad action happens. So they are actually protective factors. Hopefully they are here to protect our minds from moral defilements or immoral action.
Thank you for bringing this example up. That’s why a lot of times in the classes on Hirฤซottappa, we have to discuss about Kukkucca. Cause it comes together in that sense.
[00:08:32] Kai Xin:
It’s kind of like the cartoon, you know, they have the angel and devil. So it is before to prevent us from even taking the Lego. But then after you have already committed, then that’s where the remorse comes in.
[00:08:46] Sis Mi Yen:
And the guilt comes in.
[00:08:48] Kai Xin:
That’s interesting. Could you give us some examples of real-life situation of Hirฤซ and Ottappa?
[00:08:54] Sis Mi Yen:
Okay. Actually, all of us in a way, innately have Hirฤซottappa in us.
But it is still important for us to develop or practise it. For this, I actually want to bring us back to a very important reference from Ashin Buddhaghosa, a fifth-century Indian Theravฤda Buddhist commentator, translator and philosopher. So, Ashin Buddhaghosa has actually highlighted eight factors that can help us to facilitate or cultivate Hirฤซ and Ottappa. Hopefully we have these eight factors to guide us further.
First, remember we are a person of good birth. Birth is rare in our Buddhist practice. So remember that it is not worthy of a person with good birth to do unwholesome action. Remember our rare birth as a human being.
Number two. These unwholesome actions are not worthy of a mature person like me. Hopefully our maturity from our practice will also prompt us to recall that.
Third, these unwholesome actions are just unacceptable. I am a strong and courageous person. I have been practicing all our Buddhist practices, therefore I should not do this.
Fourth, these unwholesome actions are usually committed by those who are unwise. Hopefully, I have wisdom from all my Buddhist practices to guide me.
Fifth, I am a Buddhist practitioner. So I would reflect on our Buddhist doctrines, which always teach us on wholesomeness. Reflect on the dignity of the Buddha our teacher who has given us the Buddha Dhamma as the path, especially our Noble Eightfold Path. So let me keep to this. My Buddhist practice is my inheritance in this present life. So I would like to honor this for myself and also for the other people in my life because if I do something unwholesome, I’m going to hurt them.
So he described these eight beautiful factors that can help us to practice Hirฤซ. If we can remember, just go back to the basics, the Four Noble Truth, the Noble Eightfold Path. You’ll be guided by what Ashin has actually mentioned.
He says there are another four factors. Clear understanding of the consequences will totally stop us from committing unwholesomeness. He says this, we will be afraid of doing something that we are gonna regret later, if we know this unwholesomeness is gonna be criticised, that we are gonna be punished in the present life or the future life. Very related to our core Buddhist practice. I always love contemplating and reminding myself of maintaining Hirฤซ and Ottappa in myself. That’s how we can practice to cultivate Hirฤซ and Ottappa. I know it’s a long explanation but we will share with our listeners all the important links.
[00:11:59] Kai Xin:
It’s good that you actually brought up the context or the different line of thoughts because then these are signposts on the kind of narrative that goes in our head. Then you recognize, oh, this is actually trying to guard my morality so that I would have no regret in the future.
In fact, I would share another anecdotal experience to kind of make this a little bit more relatable. I would say, especially the Dhamma practice, because we have the Five Precepts. So no killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no lying and no intoxicant, right? The precepts itself has always been at the back of my head and has actually allowed me to avoid troubles or dangers, particularly when it comes to lying. This one is quite difficult, I would say, because white lie is also involved and sometimes you not saying anything, hiding the truth, if you’re strict about it, it’s also considered lying. Right? So that was actually a very interesting instance at work. I was in a moral dilemma. Our team has actually accidentally circulated a confidential piece of information from client A to client B, and this was by accident.
So the moment when we found out, it was a moral dilemma because if we don’t tell, then the client won’t know that we have made this mistake. But if we do tell, our client might feel that, hey, why don’t we kind of guard their confidential information safely. There might be trust that is lost.
But then there’s also the other side, which is what if we don’t tell? Eventually our client were to find out and we knew that we should have told. So there was kind of like a little bit of ding-dong and then I kind of couldn’t sleep as well. In the end, we made the difficult decision, which is to own up to our mistake because it is our responsibility. And I think the whole concern is about, okay, will we destroy the trust? But the very fact that we are hiding the truth, there’s no transparency, there’s no trust, right? So we have to bear our consequences.
Our client actually appreciated it. What we thought would be quite a big hoo-ha didn’t unfold in the manner that we expect, we expect our clients to actually scold us. So what happened was our client was very thankful and said, okay, it was by mistake, can you let us know who are the relevant parties? And also let me check with my team, who’s part of legals and comms to see what can be done. And then for us, of course our offer is okay, whatever corrective actions you want us to take, we will go ahead and take it. But it was such a big load off all of our chests because the very fact that we are not hiding anything to me it’s about keeping the precept of honesty as well as being truthful.
Also from a leadership standpoint, it does set some form of tone, right? Like how do you own up to your mistake and say that it’s okay, we make mistakes. Be responsible for our actions. There’s so much more respect from there rather than doing it otherwise.
[00:15:01] Sis Mi Yen:
Wow. I’m so proud, you know, of what has transpired between you, your team, and the other team. And this is the amazing part, you know? Cause we human beings actually have conscience. We have the ability to recognise mistakes and we know that if we do not resolve it, it’s gonna be sticky. And it’s very interesting that we can’t go against natural emotions.
In the psychology of emotions in Buddhism, there are four sets of basic challenging emotions that none of us can escape. The example that you give is guilt and shame. The four challenging emotions are anger and hatred, fear and anxiety, grief or sorrow, guilt or shame. It will arise. We cannot run away from it.
And of course, the more we are able to reflect and practice Hirฤซottappa, hopefully it will prevent occurrence of the four sets of challenging emotions and your example is right on the dot on that. Instead of anger or hatred from your client, you know, they actually have positive emotion. They were appreciative of your honesty. So you see we are always very stuck on the negativity. But we forgot that there’s always the other positive part of emotions and actions of course. I’m so happy to hear that the situation was actually resolved. I cannot imagine that stress that you guys were having due to that.
[00:16:32] Kai Xin:
It was quite stressful. Like, will we lose a client because of that, you know, our reputation will be tarnished. And everything turned out to be alright and I think it was for the better. I thought whatever you mentioned was so true. Fear and shame, connotation is usually very negative, very intense. Ajahn Jayasฤro clarified to say it’s actually wise shame and wise fear, when you use it skillfully, it actually helps you to reduce the emotions that you talk about – anxiety, restlessness and helps us be more peaceful.
[00:17:01] Sis Mi Yen:
Yes, definitely. That’s why Hirฤซ and Ottappa are called the two superheroes or the protectors of the world. We need this as a human being in our world. It’s so scary. There are a lot of bad deeds, evilness because of the lack of Hirฤซ and Ottappa. If we didn’t have Hirฤซ and Ottappa, to protect us, we have to then deal with Kukkucca. It’s when the bad action has been committed, but we need to deal with the guilt, the remorse, the shame.
[00:17:33] Cheryl:
I got a question that could be quite obvious. So what would be considered a good deed or a bad deed? So, for example, in Kai Xin’s case, it’s obvious, following the five percepts. That’s examples of maintaining morality, maintaining goodness but a lot of times, what we think is bad is not really bad. For example, premarital sex. Some people would think it’s very bad, but if you dive a little bit deeper, it’s because society said so, or your parents said so. So it’s very subjective to a certain extent. How do we know what is truly considered a good deed?
[00:18:06] Sis Mi Yen:
Ah, that’s very tricky. To me, not good deeds they’re any deeds that does not fall under our practice of Five Precepts. It’s actually very deep itself. So that will definitely always guide us to perform good deeds and to abstain from bad deeds. Another Buddhist practice will be the Noble Eightfold Path. To practice the Noble Eightfold Path itself is not easy. Having the Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, that is itself will take us many lives to practise.
Based on what you have actually mentioned, that example is very frequently asked by people. So is premarital sex a sexual misconduct breaking the third precept? So I would say that it all depends on the two persons involved in the act. The element that you touch on, the cultural aspect or the religious aspect is tricky. Some religious rules is no premarital sex. So then they will view that as very negative.
But I think our third precept to abstain from sexual misconduct, it has to do with these two individuals. Are they truly clear and respectful of each other when they are in that sexual relationship? Are they both willing?
It’s very tricky on the frame of mind of the two person. If there is clarity on both sides, then it is a mutual relationship. If one person is hesitant or not comfortable and so forth, then of course, that act itself is a misconduct.
Right or wrong, the mind always wants to judge, it’s so tricky. If we wanna go deeper into the perception that arises in us, in making that judgment itself, what are many more layers behind it that make us arrive at the right or the wrong. It’s much more worthwhile to go back to actually investigate the processes, rather looking at what is right or what is wrong. It’s so subjective. But of course, living in a society there are rules set by the country, the government, of course those are hard to challenge. But in terms of moral or social rules that becomes very tricky.
My suggestion is, if we are practicing Buddhism always have that mindfulness to bring us back to investigate the processes that’s happening internally. Learn from that processes itself. So, I’m not sure whether I’ve answered you, Cheryl.
[00:20:51] Cheryl:
You helped to remind us that it’s important to understand what’s really going on internally because you cannot lie to yourself to a certain extent.
[00:21:00] Kai Xin:
And I think it’s also important to understand the purpose behind even keeping the precepts or discerning what’s right and wrong. What I find beautiful about the Buddhist teaching is everything should lead us to peace. So if we have this mental restlessness and agitation by saying, oh, but it’s a gray area. Is it right? Is it wrong? Caught up with this endless debate, then it doesn’t actually help us free ourselves from suffering. There’s this term called sฤซlabbata-parฤmฤsa, clinging to rules and rituals, or even clinging on to our views. And it’s a very subtle part of practice because sometimes we like to follow rules, especially a very Asian context, right? Like, oh, this means this, B means B, C means C, but the world isn’t so black and white.
I think precepts is meant for us to find that peace and also live harmoniously with the society around us. Which is why in the discourses, a lot of times actually the Buddha did mention to abide by the law of the nation to not cause a disruption. As practitioners, our own responsibility is to also say, okay, if I were to do this, yes, it’s a little bit gray. Once I do this deed will I then have regret? For me, I found that to be very helpful. If it doesn’t bring peace, then perhaps I won’t venture into that path.
[00:22:19] Sis Mi Yen:
Somehow, there is this extreme category where some people have that deep, ignorance about the world, about being human. They will not be able to even have the realization, the reflection or the awareness of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness in the first place. That will be the very hard evil, really hardcore bad deeds and so forth, but to me, that’s a very small percentage.
But the bottom line is, the higher percentage of all of us have this basic ability to know what is wholesome and what is unwholesome. A lot of times because we are challenged by our greed, we want “Nevermind lah”. So I think it’s a lot more on that. In our Buddhist practice, we really understanding our greed, hatred and delusion is always with us. How do we deal with that?
For me, the Noble Eightfold Path has really unfolded for us the answer. The cultivation of the mind, the mental development, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration. This is the hardest part for a lot of Buddhist, the meditative practice and effort. It’s only with that do we actually train our mind, every moment so that hopefully we do have this calmness, clarity in us that we can carry to face the world with a lot of vices and evilness and so forth, we can’t avoid that.
But hopefully with this cultivation, no matter how ugly it is out there, hopefully we can maintain that inner freedom and peace, which to me is the main Buddhist teaching or Buddhist practice. If you don’t practice Right Effort, Right Concentration, Right Mindfulness, you are not able to cultivate Hirฤซottappa. No way.
[00:24:10] Cheryl:
I think Hirฤซ and Ottappa also helps to protect our long-term happiness. For example, the Fifth Precept to not intoxicate, but sometimes life is very hard. You just want to numb yourself by intoxicating.
[00:24:22] Sis Mi Yen:
The temptation, fighting greed, is very challenging for all of us in this materialistic world. Right?
[00:24:29] Kai Xin:
Yeah, I do see how mindfulness and concentration especially, can help us to have that clarity of mind to even tap into our own inner wisdom because we have many things happening around us. It’s very easy to be swayed. Like if we hang out with the wrong company, then we would think that it’s okay to indulge, but it doesn’t necessarily lead to our long-term welfare. Yeah, so also very important to hang out with wise friends in order to kind of help us stay on the path, to recalibrate. And most importantly, we have to be truthful to ourselves.
[00:25:01] Sis Mi Yen:
Since today we’re talking about Hirฤซottappa, I would like to highlight that a lot of our Buddhist core teachings are all interconnected. But Hirฤซ and Ottappa, it is placed under the Treasure Dhana Sutta. It’s two out of the seven Noble Treasures. So maybe let me just share with the listener what are the Seven Noble Treasures? We will give the link to the audience.
So the first category is actually moral training. Under the moral training there are four treasures, four practices, the treasure of faith, Saddhฤ. Start with Saddhฤ, our faith towards Dhamma. Second one is the treasure of moral virtue, followed by the treasure of Hirฤซ, moral shame and the treasure of Ottappa, moral fear. So these four are grouped under moral training.
And with this, comes in the next category, the meditation training. Here they have two treasures for us to practice. The treasure of learning, and I think it’s very deep. The next one is the treasure of charity or generosity. It’s very interesting that this sutta they place it under meditation training.
The last one, number seven is actually the wisdom training and this is the treasure of wisdom, paรฑรฑฤ.
See how important is Hirฤซ and Ottappa. It’s within these seven that Budha has actually taught all of us. Hold these as treasures in your life as human being. It’s very, very near, interconnected back to our Noble Eightfold Path.
So it’s all interconnected. The moral training is gonna be connected to our wisdom training. And it’s gonna be connected to our Samฤdhi training, the mental cultivation training. The Eightfold Path is also three categories. It’s similar with the seven treasures.
But the one I really like is the first treasure, saddhฤ, faith. We should ask ourselves, you know, how deep is our faith towards the Buddha Dhamma, so how deeply or strongly, we understand the Four Noble Truths, the Three Defilements, the Noble Eightfold Path and of course the Mahฤ Satipaแนญแนญhฤna Sutta, the mental cultivation, the meditative practice. All these core itself takes many lives to practice. But go back to that again and again. I think this is so complementary how they positioned the Hirฤซ and Ottappa, very systematic.
Our Buddha, our Buddhist suttas are very systematic. It’s very interesting how they categorize it. But if you actually are able to look at the matching of the categories then you find that the practice are actually very flowing. Like these seven treasures, to me, it’s so flowing like the Noble Eightfold Path.
[00:27:53] Kai Xin:
Thank you for sharing. I have a curious question. You mentioned learning and charity is under the meditation training. Can you elaborate more on that?
[00:28:03] Sis Mi Yen:
Okay. Disclaimer, I may not understand the Treasure Dhana Sutta well. So please the listeners forgive me if I’m not clear or misquoting, but based on my reading and my understanding why the treasure of learning and the treasure of charity is under meditation training.
I think learning is very clear because in meditation training the learning of the mind system especially, if you do not have this ability, passion, to actually want to learn, then meditation training will become very difficult. So the attitude in learning is very important for meditation training.
Charity is very interesting. If we actually hold this treasure of charity in our life, which means that we are a generous person, a giving person, and also know how to receive at the same time, we are a very balanced person. This balance is also very important in our meditation practice.
If we always have that greed and all that stinginess and that holding back, which is the direct opposite of the treasure of charity, you can imagine the state of your mind, very constricted. Right? Versus the generosity, that openness in your practice, which is definitely very important for the meditation training, the quality of the mind. So the practice of generosity itself, you know, it’s just not like, donate, donate, donate. It’s a very meaningful and detailed process of what’s going through your mind, right? That readiness, that openness, that happiness in giving. Sometimes we give, but it comes with, “Aiya, I should have given so much…”. When you go into the processes, corrupted already right?
[00:29:53] Kai Xin:
Haven’t really let go and renounced. Actually, speaking of meditation, just wanna circle back and tie it to Hirฤซottappa.
I do know some people might say, Hey, you know, I don’t wanna get too deep into this Dhamma practice, because then it kind of makes me feel very uptight. Like in the past, you know, ignorance is bliss, right? I don’t know all these Five Precepts. I don’t meditate. You know, I can still enjoy life in a different way and fleeting happiness, that’s just part of life.
So they kind of restrict themselves from entering the Dhamma practice in a too deep manner. What are your thoughts on that? Do you feel like there’s a need to recalibrate the view in order to serve them while they’re still practising without, I don’t know, compromising their happiness?
[00:30:36] Sis Mi Yen:
That’s a very tough question, Kai Xin. I think I’m gonna approach it this way. If the individual truly is happy, peaceful, blissful with whatever they are practicing or living with. It is fine. But if it’s ignorant bliss or more of a denial kind of situation, No lah, I don’t want to practise Five Precepts, you know, it’s very restricting and things like that. If it is more towards that, they will help to deal with a lot of those challenging emotions that is gonna arise. A lot of times, people have to discover the hard way.
After they encounter the difficulties, then only they will actually appreciate, you know, what Buddha has taught us. If as we are sharing or talking, some people say, “Aiya, all these are not gonna be helpful for me”, my approach is always, yeah, it’s okay. As long as you are actually doing fine, you’re okay. But then, when they encounter challenges, if they come to us, that’s when, hopefully we have the skillfulness, to impart our Buddhist practices or teaching to them subtly. You know, that’s where we are not gonna talk about Hirฤซ and Ottappa because I think it’s already Kukkucca a lot of times.
But we gonna help them to look at their emotion of guilt, remorse, shame. What are you gonna do with it? What can you do with it? And whether our Buddhist practices then can help them to deal with it. So that’s an easy way to convince them to practice. Yeah, nobody’s going to go for meditation retreat if they’re doing fine, I tell you.
But really, you know, people who really encounter problems and then they meet people that can share with them the Dhamma in the right condition, right timing, then they will hopefully attempt and appreciate it.
And there are also people who goes into all our Buddhist practices, but they will still have a lot of hindrances. In meditation practice, the five hindrances itself is great. You can imagine it is a lifelong learning to even face all these hindrances.
So I would say that if people are in denial, we continue to be a good person, a good friend or a good colleague, to be there to support them when they need it. That’s where our generosity in helping will be helpful at that point.
[00:33:02] Kai Xin:
Thanks for that. I think that’s very wise and it also allows people to navigate based on their own capacity and we don’t become like a precept or a Dhamma police cause it can then be another situation where we feel that we are more superior and people are more inferior and they should do things a certain way, which is not helpful for our practice as well. So there’s a lot of inner search and inner calibration that we have to do. This very nicely wraps up our session, in a nice tone.
So today we have talked about quite a lot of things. Starting with what exactly is Hirฤซottappa and how it’s commonly misunderstood as Kukkucca. So the first one is having wise fear and shame before we commit a wrong deed. So that’s gonna protect us from even going down the wrong path or a path that we might end up feeling guilt and feeling remorseful, which is Kukkucca.
And then you also shared about the importance of keeping precepts and really there’s no real right and wrong. We have to understand our thought processes. It’s really about the interaction between people, right? When we have the precept, whether it’s between you and your partner, or you and society.
[00:34:08] Sis Mi Yen:
You and yourself.
[00:34:10] Kai Xin:
Yes, definitely. So it’s all intertwined and we ultimately have to see how peaceful we are when we are embodying all these qualities or trying to be an upright person. Also, you talked about the noble treasures, moral training meditation training, as well as wisdom training. We’re gonna put resources in the show notes for our listeners who want to find out more about each of these treasures.
Yeah, I think at the end of the day it’s about being truthful and honest. Innately, we already know what is beneficial. We just need that mental clarity and stillness to tap into our inner wisdom, sometimes, be the support to our friends around us without forcing, and sometimes also lean on others to guide us on the right path. So, thank you very much, Sister Mi Yen.
Any last advice for our listeners before we say goodbye?
[00:35:02] Sis Mi Yen:
I would say maybe start with the treasure of faith and really maintain the treasure of learning, if I would pick two out of the seven. I’d like to thank Kai Xin and Cheryl for inviting me to share this difficult topic.
I hope we are able to shed some light through all our definition and dialogue and so forth. Nevertheless, I wish everyone a fruitful path in our cultivation. I’d definitely place mental cultivation, meditation, as the path that hopefully all of us will continue to stay on. So naturally, thank you to both of you for having this session with me. And we’d like to thank all the listeners. Especially when they click on our podcasts and listen to us. We thank them for spending time with us.
[00:35:56] Kai Xin:
Thank you so much.
[00:35:57] Cheryl:
Thank you Sis. Mi Yen.
[00:35:58] Kai Xin:
Thanks for tuning in till the end. That’s a very insightful sharing. And if you’ll like to look at some more resources about the topic, you can go to our transcript or the show notes. We have placed some links there. And ultimately, if you’ve benefited from this podcast, it would really help us if you can give us a five-star review and share it with a friend.
And till the next episode, may you stay happy and wise.
Remorse & guilt = feelings that arise after bad action is committed Kukkucca often discussed together with uddhacca (restlessness), both uddhacca-kukkucca is the 4th of the 5 hindrances in our meditation practice. Refer to the full text of โThe Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquestโ by Nyanaponika Thera https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel026.html
Special thanks to our sponsors of the podcast
Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suรฑรฑa.
Editor and transcriber of this episode: Tee Ke Hui
Well, if you’re listening to this podcast, I’m pretty sure you ask yourself this question sometimes, because you’re constantly trying to find ways to develop yourself to become a better person. And doing good for others and yourself is such a big part of this self improvement journey, however, is doing good, always good.
Who exactly defines what is good or what’s bad? What is right or what is wrong?
So we have the king of fried rice to king of fruits, the king of the jungle. What about the king of goodness?
Hi, my name is Kai Xin. I’m your host for this episode. And you’re listening to the Handful of Leaves podcasts, where we bring you practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.
You know, the path to happiness isn’t a smooth one. We will definitely meet with setbacks and challenges around work, relationships, mental well being and so much more. In this podcast, we discuss these realities of life and explore how we can bring the Dharma closer to home so that we can navigate the complexities of life just a little better.
Besides this podcast, we also share resources and insights on our Instagram, Facebook and Telegram channel. Please subscribe if you haven’t already done so.
In this very episode, we have a chat with Sister Sylvia Bay. She graduated with a BA Honours first class in Buddhist studies from the Buddhist and Pali University of Sri Lanka in 2000. Sister Sylvia isn’t just academically smart. Since 1992. She has been dedicating her life to the practice and serving the community, she has been doing so by dedicating time outside of work to give Dhamma talks and lectures, and practical application of the Dharma is always heavily emphasised in all her sharings.
Today, she’ll be opening our minds on a topic of what it means to be good. And the tipping point when doing good, turns bad. Trust me, it’s filled with so much insights. I personally had a lot of ‘aha’ moments. And I encourage you to take a notepad and start taking down some notes. Now let’s begin.
Kai Xin 02:22
Hi, Sister Sylvia, good to have you here.
Sylvia 02:24
Nice to see you too.
Kai Xin 02:27
Yes, it’s really good to have you because today we are exploring something that it’s quiet, I would say, mind-boggling because you know, in Buddhism, we talk about doing good, avoiding evil, and purifying the mind. What I think is mind-boggling is the definition of good. Because you know, people sometimes will justify their actions to say, Oh, I do this because, but it’s a little grey as well. There are a lot of questions that I have for you to kind of explore that grey area. Perhaps we can start off with, what is your definition of good.
Sylvia 03:07
This thing about good? People kind of know, right? I mean, we all have all of us, any of us, even the little ones will have some sense of what’s good and bad. And typically, if you ask people, why is this good? Or why is this bad? It will boil it down to a few things. One, it has to do with feelings. Meaning, if you feel really unpleasant, and because it’s so unpleasant, your instinct is to react to that in a way that will cause pain or more problems for yourself or for others. And because you do that, it will create pain, or, or suffering for yourself or others. Generally, it’s like that.
If you think about it, let’s say I get angry. Anger is an unpleasant sensation. When one feels anger, one will say something or do something that allows one to express that anger. And in saying or in doing, the odds are, it hurts someone, whether it’s yourself or another. And when you step back, you who were angry, when you look at the episode, there will arise a sense of maybe conscience, maybe a bit of shame, a sense that maybe I shouldn’t have done that. There’s regret, and there is remorse. Anybody in a similar situation is likely to say that’s bad. That’s not good.
Conversely, suppose let’s say, you were very kind, you saw people hurting, you came forward, you help. And then you turn away and say, ‘That’s a very nice feeling. I really feel happy I feel light there’s pleasant sensation.’
And then others observing that act, and will also say, ‘Oh, that’s a very good act’.’ Because they also feel pleasure, they feel the pleasant sensation. One thing about what’s good or bad has to do with feeling. Which is why for many people, there is generally some common instinctive appreciation of the act as good or bad. We understand the feeling involved in that. But it’s not all about feelings. We know that. For instance, sometimes you feel unpleasant. Like righteousness, right? Someone gets bullied. And then you look at it, and you go, it’s not nice. The sense that this is wrong, there is unpleasant, but you know, when you feel sorry for someone that’s considered good. But the feeling is not good.
Kai Xin 06:26
I hear a couple of things. So one is you yourself must feel pleasant.
Or it has to stem from wanting to do good, then there must be some form of feedback as well. Right? So other people are approving of your act.
However, I’m just thinking of a very grey situation where maybe somebody is bullied. And I feel righteous that this person mustn’t do this. Then, I act on my feelings, and it might either be scolding that person or maybe I might retaliate, and people around me might say, ‘Wow, you’re so brave to do that.’. Then is it still good?
Sylvia 07:08
Now we go back and we unpack this one. Okay. Let’s unpack this, when you feel sorry for the victim, at that point, what arises is empathy. Empathy is the condition that allows you to continue doing something good for another. Empathy is a good thing. But because our feelings and actions proliferate fast, they react fast, and they proliferate fast. The result is anger will come up, you basically put it righteousness. Righteousness is anger, a sense of justice, which is anger, okay? When that comes up, what is good is now being stained. What would have been good, has now become somewhat stained by our sense of righteous anger. And that’s why there is also that sensation of unpleasantness that because it’s unpleasant, you want to react, whether to score or to stand up for somebody you want to react, and the words that come out is intended to hurt, to beat the other bully. So all this is downstream.
Now, what was initially would have been a good reaction has now become not good. Because now we are experiencing a lot of wanting a lot, which will create more pain for yourself and for others. If you ask me, what would I consider good, is a speech or an act that will lead to benefits and happiness for yourself and for others. It’s always for Buddhism, it’s always for yourself, and for others, it’s not a zero-sum game. It has to be when there is the raising of common interest, benefit, happiness, welfare. In my mind, that’s what I would consider is good and correct. Anything that leads to pain suffering, it will cause hurt for people. It would diminish interest, welfare, happiness, those are considered bad. No good. It’s actually not difficult. It’s pretty straightforward.
How do you know what is good or not, you will experience it through the feelings, for sure you will have the sensation. I’ll give you an example. Suppose let’s say you lost somebody, someone very close to you. And there is a part in you that griefs. No one would say that’s bad per se because it doesn’t hurt another person. But it’s pain, right? You lost somebody, you miss the person, you experience pain. The fact that you experienced pain means there is attachment. There is longing, attachment, longing, it’s always a condition, for problems now and in the future. And in that sense, any form of craving, or wanting or longing, any form of it is not good, unskilful (Akusala). Any form of it.
Kai Xin 11:08
Let’s go back to what you said about any speech or action should be for the welfare and benefit of others and yourself. How do you measure that benefit? Because I’ll give you an example. I think in today’s day and age, there are a lot of activists, you know, small groups wanting to fight for social justice, or environmentalism. And it’s always, there are two sides to a coin, right, somebody feels that it’s valuable to be a vegetarian. And some people feel like no, it’s not really to my advantage and my welfare, and it’s such an inconvenient thing. And I don’t feel happy about it as well. So then it becomes like a dichotomy, or in the process of wanting to do good, perhaps somebody else’s happiness is being compromised?.
Isn’t it vary based on what an individual would value? Then is that something which everyone would agree upon? Who defines the benefit, and who defines what’s good? Isn’t it very subjective?
Sylvia 12:21
Then, of course, there’s some degree of subjectivity. That is true, in fact, in how each person view the world, it’s subjective, in anything that you undertake. If someone perceives that his interest is infringed on that his happiness is compromised, he will perceive you as not nice to him not doing good by him. That is true. There are many causes that people get themselves into that they get very righteous, they are very active and very enthusiastic. But you think a bit harder, it’s questionable about the end results of the causes. That is true, I acknowledged and agreed to that.
Let’s think back about what makes it right and what makes it wrong. The Buddha talked about intention, and how it’s done, and then the results. There are three parts to it.
If your intention was wholesome (Kusala), and you really wish for a common good and everyone can benefit from it. If that’s your intention, then you will experience that it is pleasant. If your intention is pure, your experience will be pleasant. If you say the cause is pure, like protecting life, it is pure, but the way you’re expressing your feeling about it is unpleasant or painful, Then at that point, whatever you say, your motivation is still unwholesome.
I’ll give you an example, let’s say pro-life, people who fight for pro-life and then some of them get so angry, right? That you respect life is pure. But because you’re angry with others who don’t share your views, and therefore, at the point when you feel pain, that motivation has already turned into unwholesome. You just didn’t realise it.
Do you understand? It’s the same thing when you campaign for the weather and climate. You’re doing that because you understand the science that men are paying for the sins of the past. That now you’re angry that there’s a bunch of people who are irresponsible and unreasonable ,and they really don’t care. There is anger. Your cause is maybe good. But because your mind is now narrowly focused on the selfishness of others. The cause is still wholesome, but your motivations are no longer wholesome.
Kai Xin 18:24
Yeah, that’s such a good point. Because I also personally would notice, perhaps there’s some form of attachment, wanting other people to kind of fit my own ideals. And there’s a lot of judging in the process as well. And it’s a valuable point that you pointed out that it doesn’t matter how people judge you because, in my mind, it’s very difficult to please everybody, right, my intention might be pure. And I might go through the motion and execute my pure intention in a skilful way. But if the other person is going to be angry about it, then do I have to feel the need and the sense to fit that person’s ideal, then it will just be a very stressful life to me.
Sylvia 19:09
Then you’re in the world, really. It’s in action reaction.
You know, in some countries, in some regional countries really good. They you see pots and pots of water that they left the leaf outside their house for travellers to be able to drink. It’s very pure. It’s like, I want to be timing and take a drink if you need one. And that’s correct or not. You put the you put the item on the table, and you walk away without because then you’re saying I’m not invested in the outcome. I’m only invested in the purity of the act, but the outcome of it, I’ve walked away from it. I don’t want to hang around and be really caught up in why is it not working.
Kai Xin 19:58
Speaking of that, when you talk about not being invested in the outcome?
Personally, I think it’s very difficult because the outcome is the most tangible. People can’t read minds. And you know, when we talk about being good, we have certain guidelines to follow, don’t lie, don’t kill. And that is the experience also in the process, like, oh, perhaps I have accidentally told a white lie, or I’ve like intentionally out of habit. And then I go into this self guilt kind of mode. How do you reconcile because the outcome is bad, right? I’m not supposed to lie. But then I’m judging my intention.
How does one not be invested in the outcome?
Sylvia 20:47
You know, we’re talking about campaigning for the climate. And that’s a cause, a social cause, a social set of conditions that you’re trying to create what you were referring to separately, it’s about precepts, not telling lies and not killing, not stealing, meaning, the choices you make at a very narrow tactical level.
The other one is you’re talking about a goal. In its most strategic things, it’s like, how do I live my life? How do I raise children, that’s a goal. In that goal, there are many steps and many acts. Many things that you do those minute ones is a separate thing.
Can we take them separately?
Specifically on this issue about precepts, keeping to precepts, that you’re feeling bad because you didn’t do it right. I believe if you understand why the rules are crafted like this, meaning what is the larger objective, then you know how to calibrate your life, calibrate the choices, and you don’t feel bad when you are calibrating. I’ll give you an example. Let’s take lying. The reason is that the consequences on our mind if you generate shades to explain reality, and your shades do not directly correlate with reality, you’re shading the truth, right? When you do that, your mind starts to store your version. In the process of all these narratives being stored in all the different shades, not absolute truth, you’re murky with the truth.The point will come when the mind can’t quite tell, accurately, what is the fact and what is not? The perception of reality of fuzziness, becomes very fuzzy, at some point becomes your reality.
For anyone who’s practising seeing reality as is, this condition of the mind really will be a huge obstacle to practice – to realising the true nature of the mind and be able to kind of shrug away the negative instincts and become a good, wholesome, wise, clear person. Your effort to become all these is going to be seriously undermined by fuzziness. That’s one part of it.
The second part of it is regarding your reputation in society. This is the part that not many people talk about because they don’t realise they may or may not realise that this is an important point, which is something that Buddha had talked about, when someone does not tell absolute truth. It will hit his credibility, social standing, his credibility, his words will not be taken seriously. In assembly, this is how it was set in the Sutta. You think about it, you shade truths, people find out about your shading because truth has a certain way of kind of emerging, right? Then at some point, you have a reputation, she’s very loose with truths. Now you have a problem. You have a credibility problem.
For yourself internally, you can’t quite tell what’s real. For the world, externally. Your words are questionable. If people say, is this a lie? If you’re asking me that, the odds are, you know, you’re being loose with the fact, then you decide do you want to proceed with the elusiveness knowing that at some point, it may cost you your ability to see things clearly. And why do you want to do that?
We uphold these precepts, whether it’s about the truth, whether it’s about not being greedy, and taking things not given to you, whether it’s about honesty in relationship, etc. It really is because all these choices, leaves serious imprint on the mind, it can change your character, it can affect your relationship with people, it can cost you what I call it, social costs, your standing in society, and so on. Those are the practical ones.
Now comes the bigger issue, the most strategic one — the goal, the end goal, the big cause. How can one not be invested in the outcome. If you’re invested with any outcome, there is in you, a clinging, a craving, a desire. It’s not right or wrong, you must know that the more invested you are, the more stress you will feel, the more pain you will experience, the more disappointment is likely to come your way. The more intense your attachment, the more you must be prepared to accept disappointment. That’s the cost.
Kai Xin 26:42
I’m hearing a lot of common thread in your points that the attachment to the desire, having anger, these are considered unwholesome. But does that mean that we shouldn’t have desire at all? How about the desire to be good? At what point would we know that the desire for good will actually turn sour and become bad?
Sylvia 27:06
Desire for good is good only because it leads to good.
Desiring to be good means it’s the start point of downstream choices that will lead to an outcome where you experienced peace, calm, contentment, the cessation of angst, that’s why the desire for good is good. Any other forms of desire that leads to an increase in agitation, increase in pain and suffering, then those desires are unconducive for your welfare too for some it sounds “Oh this is so tall order” for some people. You just have to bring it down to your personal level, bring it home to your daily experience practice. If you say I wish to be a good person, I want to learn to be a good person.
What does it mean downstream? I will read up on what makes a good person, I listen to talks, I watch shows and I try and model behaviour to learn from others. And if you’re very serious about wanting to be a good, person, you will build upon your sense of guilt when you are not good, you feel shame when someone tells you “This is not nice” you feel shame. You’re basically quietly gently generating the conditions that will keep you on track to be a good person who causes nobodies harm and create pain for others, when people in your space they enjoy being with you, okay?
Now let’s take it differently. Let’s say I now desire to push for vaccination for everybody. Can you see the difference? You get agitated. You go ahead. Send out paper flyers, go and hound somebody. What is wrong with you? Why are you not vaccinated? Let me explain to you. As you talk you get more agitated, the fellow listeners get more agitated, the whole world around you get more agitated.
Kai Xin 29:34
What I’m hearing is that there are many causes. They really are a means to an end. Like I want to keep my precepts, or I want people to take the vaccine at the end of the day. It’s really about the welfare, the harmony or feeling peace. I will use my mental state as a yardstick. But you also mentioned shame and guilt. In the Buddhist space, we talk about Hiri Ottapa, this sense of moral shame. And then I’m also thinking on behalf of the listener and the viewers, isn’t shame and guilt an unpleasant feeling?
Some people might think, ‘I don’t think I am moral enough ,or I’m good enough to even be on the path.’ Or I cannot, you know, it’s too hard. I cannot meditate because I’m always not very peaceful. I feel like shame, it is very unpleasant. Is shame and guilt or unpleasant feeling part of the process, we have to be patient with it and see the peace, and again how do we tell it’s so such a fine balance?
Sylvia 30:35
Okay, Hiri Ottapa, Hiri is moral conscience, this is internal, you like it or not it’s there it’s built into all humans the condition, and we know that it’s built in because studies have shown that psychopaths don’t have, that it cannot be turned on that part of the brain doesn’t light up. It actually lights up, okay? And what the Buddha has taught is use this natural state to protect yourself in your practice, it’s considered a good thing because it’s what will keep you from undertaking actions that will cause you problems in your cultivation exercise. For instance, you know these precepts, don’t lie, don’t take what’s not given. If you have conscience, you don’t need this precept to tell you that you cannot do that, you cannot kill. You just don’t want to do it because you know when you do it you feel bad. Then on days when you’re very angry, very, very angry. You want to smack someone. But that part of you that holds you back is this conscience it is very strong, you are reminded that there is a cost to undertaking an action that costs another pain, you will be reminded so that you are taught never to do it. Not that you will never do it. But if you’re constantly reminded, don’t do it because you cannot sleep at night. Then when you’re confronted that situation a new situation, but it’s similar you will not do it because you remember, it will cost you sleepless night. That’s conscience.
Shame (Ottapa) is this sense of a need for communal approval and I believe that this is also in a DNA this part about needing the approval of others, right, I believe this I have no proof. I believe this is also part of our DNA because possibly built in during the time when men was living in a very dangerous world, and the only way he can survive this way he has others like him, and together they help each other in order to be able to continue staying with others, then you must conform to a certain behaviour that communally they agreed to. Your sense of shame is cultural, it is a condition or thought. It changes over time, but it’s really because there is a constant internally, you want to be accepted. And the manifestation of that is you will mirror behaviour, you will follow what people do, you will learn where all the OB markers (“out of bounds marker”) are so that you are accepted within this community. These two pillars for practice, right? It is to help the individual navigate and stay on the path that will give him a sense of peace, when you undertake an action that straight out of these two OB markers, you will have no sense of peace, they are what I call the hard parents smack you then you “I will not transgress” because they are hard.
Initially, it is difficult. But over time you can appreciate it, you can appreciate these two, if you are generally okay. And these two in your life, hold you to a wholesome path. You’re okay with it. Overtime, you feel very peaceful, then you are very grateful for these two that had kept you in check initially.
Conversely, you’re very angry person then this two you will resent then you act on your anger, you get more frustrated. These two fellows now come very hard at you. And they’re trying very hard to hold you in check. But if you refuse to at some point, you drop these two. “Heck I am already so bad, who cares” You will drop your conscience ,you will not allow people to shame you right, now you’re forcefully removing these two pillars, you have no sense of shame, you have no sense of guilt, you will continue to do whatever you want. Creating more pain, discomfort, no peace of mind, more things for yourself. Now you’re spiralling into the negative. It’s very hard to attain these things because really they are conditional.
And you just basically pick a point in this circle, that chicken and egg story. You pick the chicken, and you work from there ,and it leads back to the egg and lead back to the chicken. It sounds like that. Unfortunately, that’s why you just got to start somewhere.
Kai Xin 36:07
I know because some people would say I need to be peaceful first, and then I do all this, you know, good causes, but some people say okay, I do causes first and then eventually I will feel more at peace right then that’s where the chicken and egg comes.
I think it does require some kind of patience, isn’t it? To kind of go through that bump to say, I’ve tried so hard, but I’m constantly getting it wrong. And then dealing with the guilt that is very intense. How would you then advise people to be a bit more patient when they’re trying to be good?
Sylvia 36:41
I always try to start on the side choice because that part you can control. I mean, to the degree that you can, “Do I scold or do I not scold?” “Do I speak out, or do I not speak out? ” At that point you still have a choice. The condition of your mind at that point you didn’t choose. I mean you get angrier and angrier and angrier, it just happens. You didn’t choose to be angry. But once the anger starts, you can choose to react or not. If you have clarity, that if you give into anger today thinking that it’s temporary venting. Now it doesn’t work like that, for whatever choices that you make, it would leave some kind of an imprint on the mind leaving similar imprints for stretches, means those imprint very hard to erase.
That’s why we must start somewhere if you want to overcome anger and become a more peaceful person, you must make a determination to say anger hurts, it causes problems for physical form for the body for the mind, it causes problem, it leaves lingering effects. Therefore, I will learn to moderate my anger, I will learn to tame it, make the determination that you must get started, every time anger peaks its head out, you must smack it back and say, I will not give it to you. I will now bring up friendliness, you will choke on trying to cough up friendliness initially. But if you link these two, I will moderate my anger I will bring up friendliness I will moderate my anger I will bring up friendliness. At some point, that balance will tilt, it becomes easier to bring up friendliness than anger. And it all started with you saying you know what I have enough of this anger, I would get started.
Kai Xin 39:02
Does that require some sense of wisdom and internalisation; otherwise it can sound quite wilful, right? Like we are just clenching our teeth and say, I will be friendly, I’ll be friendly. I mean, speaking for my own experience, when I started walking on the path, I was picking myself up a lot. And there’s a lot of agitation in the process. And sometimes I kind of just want to throw in the towel, you know, and it’s like, how do I do it?
How do people do it? Why are they so nice, you know? How do you balance striving to be good? But then at the same time not being too wilful and just like you know just accepting things as they are and have that restful state.
Sylvia 39:46
You know, in the method right in the training for lay people I always talk about four mental states that you need, sometimes the Buddha mentioned five, but sometimes he mentioned four. You have faith, morality, generosity, wisdom, and you notice wisdom tags number five, four or five. If it’s five, it will be faith. I use the Pali word Saddha which means having confidence, conviction having faith in the teaching the teacher and so on, then morality, and then he introduced one more Sota which is learning the doctrine. I repeat, it can be four, or it can be five mental states. When it is 4 mental states, it is faith, morality, generosity, wisdom. If he talks about 5 mental states the third one, faith, morality, learning, generosity, wisdom. The extra one is learning. Now, why these five mental states right, when you have faith, faith in itself is a pleasant sensation. Very powerful, very pleasant. If you have faith in Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha.
The Buddha, his teaching, the monastic practice. If you have faith, people carrying that mental state will experience a pleasant sensation will be pleasant. Will not be painful. Then you say, but sometime faith is painful. Nope. Faith is not painful. What is painful is something else. Depending on the individual got to figure out what it is, but it’s not faith, faith in itself is very pleasant.
You believe it or not, if you don’t believe me, you just sit down there at where you are. You say to yourself “I have faith, I believe” and you just pause awhile to look at the mind. You will see the mind as either neutral or for those of you with very strong faith you will immediately experience a surging joy. That’s how powerful it can be. This is not difficult to polish for a Buddhist, every day, you go before the Buddha statue, the Buddha Rupa, you take a bow, and you say to yourself, I have faith in you. You just have to do this every day, momentarily, you will experience joy. And this joy, this faith, is very important. It’s very inspiring, motivating. It keeps people saying, I know it’s difficult, but because I have faith I can continue.
Kai Xin 42:59
Would it be different if we turn it inwards? I mean, for those who are non-religious, can they say, ‘I have faith in myself to be a good person or to be happier, to be more at peace.’? Would that be a difference?
Sylvia 43:14
There is a slight difference. Because if for the longest time you were not exactly the nicest person, you say, I have faith in myself to be a nice person. Great. At that point, you enjoy a little “Yes, I do feel good about this”. Then you don’t know how, if you don’t know how, you only say I can do it, but you don’t know how to do it. At some point, disappointment, doubt, will start.
That is why you need other mental states. Faith is step one, right?
And step two is morality then generosity, then wisdom, right? These are the mental states, they work collectively, to inspire you and keep you on the practice. You take away the other mental states, and you have only faith, nothing else. Then this faith is not strong. It’s not sitting on some foundation. It is where that individual say, I believe in Buddha, then when life hits you all kinds of curveballs and you at some point, your faith will wear thin for sure because you have nothing beyond faith.
If you have faith, and you are a good person, so morality right, I’m a good person I learned to do good avoid evil etc. Then I practice generosity, and generosity is another lecture by itself. But let’s say that you practice generosity, giving is just one small part of generosity, generosity of spirit, generosity of its forgiveness, generosity, embracing another’s generosity, giving up your views and your biases is generosity, etc. You have generosity and then you have wisdom.
Wisdom is understanding the transient nature of life. Understanding mortality, so to speak, learning not to hold on to things because holding on will only give you pain, so all these as a whole there is yet another series of talks there. But all these understanding of the nature of mind, all these put together that then you have the relevant tools that will keep you anchored to being good doing good. You are only occasionally true. Because you’re overwhelmed by emotions, and then you tripped a bit. But you basically hop on to the train again, and you are okay. On this wholesome adventure, you’ll be fine.
Kai Xin 46:25
Do you have a mantra or a sentence to help people who are too harsh on themselves?
Sylvia 46:33
You said earlier was correct, patience. But having said that, I will be a bit careful here. Patience must not be used as an excuse. I’m patient, and therefore I can forgive myself anything. It should not be used as an excuse for laziness or for giving yourself a discount on the practice. Patience is to me it’s more like you moderate the harshness moderate part of you that is very judging that you hold yourself to very high standards, and you judge yourself to fall short of that standard that you set. And you tell yourself, it’s okay to moderate. Patience to me, is moderation. It’s accepting that there are some conditions that are hard to overcome. And you moderate expectations. And you at every step, when you do well, you tell yourself now, this is the correct thing to do. Well done, good job. You learn to pat yourself on the back so patience lead to this kind of practices.
Patience is powerful because if it sits on wisdom. Understand that, in our practice in our cultivation, the mental states are not held in isolation, they must work in conjunction with others. Which is why if you look at the Buddha’s teaching, very often they tell you about seven factors of enlightenment, or the five powers of the mind, or the four Iddhipada, superpower states of mind, etc. It’s always a few mental states, all of them are mental states. And all these mental states are always taught as a cluster. Because alone, it doesn’t work. You need a few to hold together a set of conditions conducive for practice, conducive for staying good. Why? Because you are overcoming habits and instincts, and habits and instincts have been formed through a millennium a long time, you cannot overcome these states overnight, can’t be done. When I said earlier about patience, moderation, lowering your bar and all those things, is in recognition that whoever you are, whatever you are, today has been form through millennium. If you don’t even remember all the conditions in the past that led to a takeaway. Set baseline that now, centuries later still surface, you don’t remember what was the condition. But now you got to bear with it. When you understand enough that who you are is the result of conditions from a long ago, therefore it needs time. To understand yourself better, you need time to learn to overcome or overwrite an earlier setting of your instincts, you need to overwrite the earliest software to create new software.
Kai Xin 50:29
So, it can’t just be a sit back and see what happens kind of patience, but it requires an active and deliberate effort to say I forgive, and now I’m acting with certain mental models or framework to be better. How do we know when it’s okay to give in to our desires, say if I have a stressful day at work, I know meditating will help me relieve stress. And it’s good for me. But I don’t have the mental capacity and energy to sit on the cushion. I would rather watch YouTube videos. And then again, the cycle repeats. Oh, guilt trip. ‘Why do I do this?’
Is it more helpful to say it’s okay for me to just indulge in sensual desires and pleasures for just one day until I have the capacity to be more spiritual again. How do you know when to give in to desires and when to not give in to desires?
Sylvia 51:44
No hard and fast rule about these things. It’s individual maturity. And this is what the Buddha had said that if you truly understand through direct knowledge and understanding, we truly understand impermanence meaning, mortality and the pain of birth, if you truly appreciate that and truly get it, that can generate its own momentum for not letting up on practice.
It’s true understanding and wisdom, that then you won’t cave in. The rest of us are not to that level of direct knowledge and understanding. In fact, for many of us, our embracing of the Dharma and the practice is abit of I want my cake and eat it. What do I mean, I experienced Dukkha periodically, I find it so frustrating, life is so Dukkha, I agree. Therefore, going to the Dharma, in anticipation that we practice, my experience of Dukkha diminishes. We go into Dharma to raise the pleasure quotient to reduce the Dukkha quotient.
And because of that, actually, we are still attached to pleasure, we have never really understood, we just want our cake and eat it. We want to enjoy sensual pleasure and life as we always do without the punishment. That sense of pain that comes about because we don’t understand dhamma. For most of us, we fall into this category. And that is why in our practice, our so-called meditation, the putting time aside for meditation, right? It’s always lower on the list of things to do. Most of us are like that meditation, oh gosh, it’s like upstairs, my mind just going to be so boring. Because on the list of pleasurable things, meditation doesn’t usually rank really high. Meditation becomes like duty, which then adds on to the unpleasantness of it, and we equate practice with meditation, which is really jialat because that’s not true.
Practice is not meditation. Meditation is one part of the practice. If you have true wisdom, true insight, true understanding, you will never let up. Because if you don’t have true wisdom, true insight true understanding, then practice is just a list of things you want to do. And sometimes it’s higher (on the list) because you’re inspired. Sometimes it drops to rock bottom because on these games, the world beckons, it is just like that.ย
Is there a right or wrong? There is no right or wrong, I would like to say right means: no press on full steam ahead! But we are laypeople. And laypeople means priorities a little different, and the priorities will start to change only with growing understanding and wisdom. The wisdom is what will cause you to reprioritise at some point because you now rank practice very highly. Because of that, your progress, your insight, your understanding, will take on a new momentum.
And then it will spin in that wholesome and very energetically in the Dhamma way by itself. It’s like you’re driving on the floor. Initially, you have all these road bumps, so you cannot go very far. But at some point, you have overcome the road bumps. And now the road is clear here. And you can speed up and how fast it takes for you to speed, depends on how fast you want to get there, how fast you set the condition in place. And how fast you want to set the condition in place depends on how much pain you are now seeing.
Kai Xin 56:23
What I understand from your explanation on wisdom is that when we truly internalise that, this is something that can be more sustainable than the fleeting pleasures, then it really just propels us there’s no sense of like willpower, I have to do it. It’s a chore. And that’s a very important quality, right? Because I also noticed that some people can feel very gung-ho at the start and say, ‘I want to meditate’. It’s all about clocking the number of hours of meditation. And of course, that’s just one part of the practice.
Or some would say, ‘oh, I am so good at keeping my precept. What is this other person doing? Why is he not living up to that particular moral standard?’
But that itself might lack wisdom, because it’s not so much about transcending Dukkha and it’s not so much about being more at peace and that then becomes like the yardstick isn’t it?
Wisdom is the essential mental quality to really help us be on the right track. And then circling back to where we started. In the process, when we have wisdom, we will naturally feel pleasant, when we’re doing a good act or doing a good cause, did I get it right?
Sylvia 57:45
Wisdom is a very deep mental state. And you can approach this from a different angle, when there is wisdom, there is understanding, understanding of the concepts taught by the Buddha. Correct understanding at a deeper level, when there is wisdom, there is not just understanding, but there is an ability to notice that in your daily life, you form a conclusion that correlate with the teaching. Oh, I can see this. This is what the Buddha meant when he said all these things, capture in this Sutta or this is what the Buddha meant. Wisdom is an enabler, it enables you to understand the teaching, be able to observe the phenomenon in daily life, in direct reflection of the teaching. And wisdom also enables you to make the right choices, it means the choices that will help you grow in understanding, be a more peaceful and calmer person, more content, more at ease. Wisdom enables you to pick wisely, choose wisely. Focus your attention correctly, all gearing you towards realising the driving forces of your mind, how it works. And so you continue in daily life, you continue to do the thing that will enable you to be happier.
Wisdom fundamentally, enables you to live happily, there is no unhappy, wise person. I mean, you can have bad conditions. But when there is wisdom, you don’t feel too bad about your experience. Not great. But it’s okay, I can live with this. Wisdom helps you to accept, and therefore you’re okay. Even though the conditions are bad, this person knows how to let go. He may not know how to articulate to you how he managed to let go but he knows how to. Buddha is just so brilliant. He captured it into a training formula, DIY for everyone. Buddha wisdom is superior to everyone else because he knows how to sum up the driving forces that leads to growth of wisdom. Therefore, growth of happiness.
Kai Xin 1:00:45
I have one last question to wrap up this episode. Talking about wisdom, do you have any actionable tips that the listeners can take away to grow in wisdom and happiness?
Sylvia 1:01:00
What is this wisdom that, I think, would really help is to constantly remind ourselves whatever is transient, whatever is impermanent, feeling perceiving from mental polishing or activities and so on so forth. For everyone, they last for a mere nanosecond. The state itself lasts for mere nanosecond grief, pain, anger, frustration, lalalala. Whatever it is, all that short in a snap of a finger, it’s over. The only time you really realise the meaning of this teaching, right? That in what is impermanent, it is painful. It’s when you are diagnosed with a terminal illness or someone you love is dead. But the reality is, it’s always a condition of life. It is a condition of life that we will all die. But you see, we will happily blindly roam through life completely oblivious, of what is an inevitable situation. In what is inevitable, we are oblivious. Aha! that’s our problem. Because of that, we have the delusion of control. What are you talking about? The illusion of control, I can control people’s mind, I can convince people, so I can get the outcome I want, isn’t it? It’s all about control. When you are mindful of this, its transient and impermanent, and therefore actually, the reality is to Dukkha. And because of that. You don’t have control. Control is a figment of our imagination. Then why is it so important to get this, internalise this, why is it so important? So that you have an incentive to avoid evil, be good? And why is that important? Only then can you be happy, only when you can build your life rich with kindness, compassion, patience, etc. Then moment to moment, you are at ease, not disease, dis-ease, you are at ease you are peaceful.
Kai Xin 1:03:46
To remind ourselves of the fleeting nature of life, we can do it through reflecting on death. And also in the process, we would see the first noble truth which is, there is suffering, that is Dukkha. And that will propel us to then do what is beneficial, what is right. And through this cycle. That’s where we become wiser. We are more aware and mindful of our actions, and it is like rinse and repeat. Correct?
Sylvia 1:04:16
Yes.
Kai Xin 1:04:48
All right. Thanks a lot, Sister Sylvia. It’s been such a pleasure to hear from you and alot of insights. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks, listeners for tuning in. I hope you got as much value as I did. Please share with us what is your biggest take away, you can do so on our telegram channel or wherever you are listening to this podcast. Please give us a review because it would really help us to reach more people. And please share if you know anyone who can benefit from this. In the next episode, my co-host Cheryl and I will be touching on this topic a little deeper, exploring perspectives of how we can stand up for what is right in the Buddhist way, and whether Anger is ever justified. How can we treat a person who has committed a bad deed?
Stay tuned for the next episode. Meanwhile, stay happy and wise.
Special Thanks to:
Sopisa for helping with the transcript
Key Seng Tan, and Lynn Leng for sponsoring this podcast
