practice Archives - Handful of Leaves

Fear, Ego, Letting Go: Lessons From a Reluctant Runner

by Dittha | May 1, 2026 | Being Buddhist, Read, Wellbeing

TLDR: Running felt awful at first where I was breathless, messy and discouraging. Sticking with a beginner’s mindset turned pain into something workable and even calming.

When I talk to my friends, some of them often say, “I don’t like running” or “I really hate running.” When I ask why, the answers are usually the same: “I feel breathless” or “I can’t maintain a consistent pace.”

Deep down, I resonate with them. I used to, and occasionally still do, experience that same unpleasant sensation while running. Yet, over time, I realised that the lessons running teaches my mind bring far greater satisfaction to my overall mental and physical well-being than the temporary discomfort it creates.

So, let me share what I’ve learned along the way:

1. It’s Hard At First, But It Gets Better

I started my running journey in mid-2024, largely because of friends. With a goal to complete a race in September 2024, we trained once a week. Back then, running just 3km felt like torture. Running was never my forte (and honestly, still isn’t), so I struggled with my breathing, my form, and my confidence.

But you never know unless you try.

I entered running with a beginner’s mindset: accepting that pain exists, that improvement takes time, and that small adjustments to breathing and technique matter.

Slowly, I realised something important: the pain is temporary. Once you pass that phase, running can become therapeutic. With the wind brushing past and the rhythm of my steps, I felt a sense of freedom. No overthinking, no monkey mind. Just breath, movement, and the present moment.

Looking back, this reminds me of something the Buddha often emphasised: training is gradual. The body learns in stages, and so does the mind. Discomfort does not mean something is wrong. It often means something is being learnt. When I stopped fighting the unpleasantness and simply stayed with it, the struggle softened on its own.

2. Do It Scared

After crossing the 5km mark, I decided to join a running club. I joined alone because the friend who recommended it couldn’t make it that day. It was intimidating, stepping outside my comfort zone, surrounded by experienced runners.

Thankfully, there were other first-timers, and we ran together.

However, midway through the run, I couldn’t hold my pace. From the middle of the pack, I slowly drifted to the back until the sweeper pacer stayed by my side. She shared tips with me, though I barely absorbed them as I struggled to breathe. Near the end, I decided to walk for a bit. She understood, it was a beginner’s struggle, and I returned among the last few runners.

What made me come back was curiosity. I wanted to try the advice she gave me. With a sense of ehipassiko, “come and see for yourself”, I continued running, joining other clubs and experiencing different group vibes. As an extrovert, I found this surprisingly fun!

It was scary at first. But fear fades when you show up, again and again.

Over time, I made new friends. From running in silence to training and running together with marathon buddies. It was a meaningful connection I found through joining running clubs. I’m grateful to meet supportive camaraderie who share the same hobby.

3. Start Everything with Intention

As I went deeper into the running “realm,” I learned that there are different training types and zones. Some runs push speed; others require slowing down to build long-term strength.

Once I understood this, I began setting intentions before every run. The temptation to compare myself, to look left and right, is always there. But the grass is always greener on the other side. Your own grass grows when you water it consistently.

So my intention became simple: show up, water my own grass, and trust that results will come in their own time. I push myself to a level that still feels okay, without pushing my body to the point of burnout. Somemore it’s fun to switch various training in a week too!

4. You Don’t Always Get What You Want… And That’s Okay

Every training plan comes with goals. But life gives lemons often times…

I once aimed for a 6:30/km pace in a 10km race and finished at 6:33/km, ending the race feeling nauseous. That experience taught me to start steady instead of getting swept up by the crowd (I had run the first 2km at a 5:00 pace). There was also a time on my first ever half-marathon where my watch malfunctioned at the 9km mark and restarted from zero. So I didn’t get any PB (personal best) recorded on stats for both races that I was looking forward to.

When my watch restarted from zero, I was reminded that suffering often comes not from what happens, but from what we cling to.

It’s actually a reminder to let go of the desire for validation and proof. The frustration tells me to enjoy the process, and going back to the reason why I run in the first place: to experience a little bit of “freedom” and to have fun enjoying different moments in life.

I take heart too in Ajahn Brahm’s, a famous Australian meditation master, saying that:

“Your job is not to ask for things the world can’t give you. Your job is to observe. Your job is not to try to prod and push this world to make it just the way you would like it to be. Your job is to understand, accept, and let it go.”

5. Surround Yourself with People Who are Better Than You

Or in other words, it’s okay to be the “dumbest” in the room.

When I wanted to improve my speed, I joined interval training sessions. Puma Run Club became my choice because of its structured coaching. Yes, the pressure was there, but I learned to embrace my pace and enjoy the companionship.

It also teaches me to loosen my attachment to the sense of “self.” Insecurity still arises, thoughts like “I don’t fit in” or “I’m so slow compared to them.” Instead of getting caught in them, I observe these thoughts like floating clouds. I recall the idea of “self” is shaped by conditions and is constantly changing. Hence, with this understanding, I can come with an objective intention to learn, without feeding my insecurities.

It turns out by running with people more experienced than me, I learned practical tips through shared stories. My pace and endurance slowly improved and I gained friendships along the way.

6. Cherish the Companions

One of the most beautiful things about running communities is their positivity. I’ve never felt discouraged by seasoned runners. They don’t judge you for running slowly, because they understand it’s part of the process. Any fear or negativity I felt initially came from my own mind. Once I let go of the negative mindset, I come to run with a lighter heart.

Happy people celebrate effort. And that energy matters to keep going, improving in running or just striving in ‘life’ in general. Most of the runners are very supportive! Some of us also ran 21KM and came on both days to cheer for other runners too!

Beyond Running

I’m grateful to meet friends from the running community with whom we can talk about other aspects of life! From helping a friend get her race bib, work life, to travel, family, even I found my neighbour whose house in Jakarta is just 2-3 units away from mine! XD

It was really fun getting to know new friends and broadening my perspective, too!

Also, other areas of my life have improved. I gained clarity during my quarter-life crisis, and yes, as a side effect, I finally reached a weight I had been aiming for since upper primary school 😂.

More importantly, running taught me lessons beyond exercise. It reshaped how I face challenges, helped me reframe difficulties, and reminded me to keep going, even when life feels uncomfortable. Last but not least, having supportive friends is really important in the journey – they are your fuel to keep going when you feel unmotivated!

I hope I continue to have the right conditions to maintain a beginner’s mindset, one that allows me to keep learning and experimenting (taking in the essence of ehipassiko) in many forms: exercise, meditation, creativity, leadership, and beyond, with a single intention: to be a better person every day.

Thanks for reading! Hope this sharing also inspired you to be better for your own physical and mental well-being!

Cheers, Ditt

Wise Steps

Start with a beginner’s plan and accept early discomfort, because training is gradual for body and mind, like running 3km easy while noticing breath without judgement.
Join a group even if you’re anxious, since fear shrinks with exposure and support, like turning up alone to a club run and sticking with the sweeper.
Set a clear intention before each session to curb comparison, such as deciding today is a slow zone-2 run and ignoring faster packs on the park loop.

The Art of Being an Insufferable Buddhist: A Guide to Losing Friends and Alienating People

by Handful of Leaves | Apr 1, 2026 | Being Buddhist, Read

TLDR: Discovered the Dhamma and can’t stop quoting it at baby showers, dinners, and funerals? This tongue-in-cheek guide reveals how spiritual ego sneaks in and how to stay kind, grounded, and relatable while practising sincerely.

Congratulations on your spiritual growth in the Dhamma! Now that you’ve discovered the Dhamma, it’s time to make sure everyone else knows about it….especially at the worst possible moments. Here’s your guide to becoming that person nobody wants to invite anywhere anymore. (April Fools special)

The Birth Announcement Buzzkill

Your friend just had a baby. They’re glowing with joy, exhausted but happy, holding their newborn like it’s the most precious thing in the world. This is your moment.

What to say: “Well, birth is the cause of death, isn’t it? The First Noble Truth tells us life is suffering. Now you’ve brought another sentient being into samsara. Have you considered the karmic implications?”

The awkward aftermath: The room goes quiet. Aunty drops her phone. Someone coughs nervously. Your friend’s spouse suggests that maybe you have somewhere else to be.

The actual lesson: Yes, the Buddha taught about suffering and impermanence, but he also spoke about loving-kindness (metta). Understanding life’s challenges doesn’t mean ruining happy moments. True practice means holding both the reality of impermanence and the beauty of precious moments. Just say “Congratulations!” first. The deep conversations can wait.

The Attachment Free Dinner Guest

You’ve been invited to a dinner party where your friend spent six hours preparing their grandmother’s secret recipe. They’re beaming with pride.

What to say: “I’ve probably transcended attachment to taste. Everything is just fuel for this temporary body. There’s a monk who eats blindfolded to avoid sensory attachment, you know?”

The awkward aftermath: Your host stares at their lovingly prepared meal. Another guest quietly eats your portion. You’re somehow both sanctimonious and still helping yourself to seconds.

The actual lesson: The Middle Way isn’t about rejecting all pleasure. It’s about not being enslaved by it. The Buddha rejected extreme asceticism for a reason. Appreciating good food mindfully, acknowledging the effort and connection it represents, is perfectly fine. Try: “This is delicious, thank you for preparing it.”

The Meditation Flex

Someone mentions they’re stressed about work deadlines.

What to say: “I wouldn’t know about stress anymore. I meditate two hours daily….one hour in the morning, one at night. Working toward three hours now. My teacher says I’m progressing quite rapidly. Have you tried just… not being attached to outcomes?”

The awkward aftermath: Your friend now feels both stressed and inadequate. They’re definitely not calling you next time they need support.

The actual lesson: Meditation is a tool for growth, not a competitive sport. The Buddha’s teaching on Right Speech includes being helpful and timely. If someone’s drowning, you don’t lecture them about your swimming achievements, you help them. Share techniques if asked, but spiritual one-upmanship is just ego in different packaging.

The Impermanence Party Pooper

Your friend just got promoted or bought their first flat, or got engaged.

What to say: “That’s nice, but you know it won’t last. Everything is impermanent. Companies downsize, relationships end,and houses deteriorate. Clinging to these temporary conditions will only bring suffering.”

The awkward aftermath: The celebration ends abruptly. Your friend wonders if you were ever really their friend.

The actual lesson: Understanding impermanence should make us more present and grateful, not less. When we know flowers will fade, we treasure them more deeply while they bloom. The teaching on impermanence is meant to free us from anxiety, not to weaponise against joy. Rejoice in others’ happiness (mudita) while it’s here. That’s also part of practice.

The Kamma Accountant

Someone shares they’re going through a difficult time, like illness, job loss, or relationship trouble.

What to say: “Well, everything is kamma. You must have done something in a past life to deserve this. Have you reflected on what negative actions you might be reaping the consequences of?”

The awkward aftermath: You’ve just blamed someone who’s suffering for their suffering. They’re hurt, and rightly so. Congratulations, you’ve also created some questionable kamma yourself.

The actual lesson: Kamma is complex and not meant to be wielded as a judgment stick. The Buddha consistently emphasised compassion over cosmic scorekeeping. When people suffer, they need support, not blame. Even the Buddha didn’t always explain suffering through past actions. He cared for the sick monk nobody else would help. Practice compassion first, philosophical discussions later (or never).

The Ego Free Ego Trip

In any group discussion:

What to say: “I don’t have opinions anymore, I’ve transcended the ego. I simply observe without judgment, unlike you all who are trapped in your conceptual frameworks and dualistic thinking.”

The awkward aftermath: Everyone notices you seem awfully attached to being unattached. Your “egolessness” is the most egotistical thing in the room.

The actual lesson: Spiritual bypassing (using teachings to avoid genuine engagement or feel superior) is a trap. Real non-attachment includes not being attached to appearing enlightened. The most profound practitioners are often the most humble and ordinary. If you’re constantly announcing your transcendence, you haven’t transcended anything.

The Way Forward

Here’s what nobody tells you: being Buddhist (or practising Buddhism) shouldn’t make you insufferable. If it does, you’re doing something wrong.

The Buddha’s teaching was always practical and rooted in reducing suffering for yourself and others. If your practice makes you less kind, less present, less able to connect with people in their joy and sorrow, then somewhere along the way you’ve lost the plot.

Real practice looks like showing up for your friends. It looks like appropriate responses to situations. It means genuine warmth, not performative detachment. It means understanding when to share teachings and when to simply be human together.

So next time you’re tempted to drop a Dhamma bomb at a baby celebration, ask yourself: “Will this reduce suffering, or am I just trying to look enlightened?”

The answer might be the most important teaching of all.

Now go forth and be less annoying. Your friends will thank you.

Why Struggling With the Precepts Isn’t a Failure

by Kaylee Siaw | Dec 17, 2025 | Being Buddhist, Read

TLDR:

The Five Precepts are meant to guide us toward a peaceful, guilt‑free life. Some days I feel great (at the point of writing my last article), and some days I don’t (some time after writing my last article). Here is my experience in navigating the occasional weight of the precepts and how I am managing it.

When the Practice Feels Heavy

After having a little taste of the joy of virtues, I locked in. I wanted more; I wanted to be better. I got frustrated and critical about everything I did “wrong.” I started overanalysing every flaw and pushing myself too hard to be perfect.

Before long, the joy drained away. Instead of uplifting me, my self-criticism was weighing me down. I made the common mistake of judging myself by the Five Precepts and feeling like I didn’t measure up.

The Inner Critic Is Not Your Friend

One learning over the past few months is that perfectionism is a quick and dirty way to create doubt about my own goodness. The moment I slip, maybe I say something unkind, the mind quickly reacts and latches onto the mistake. It pounces:

“You were supposed to avoid harmful speech, so why did you say that?” The inner critic, under the guise of “trying to help”, makes me doubt my capacity for goodness and change.

Life does not make it easier. The world moves quickly, too quickly for my mindfulness on some days. Stress piles up, one thing after another: too little sleep, work deadlines squeezed into impossible corners, customer service errors making things worse and criticism from a loved one.

On days like that, my battery runs flat, and I notice myself reacting more sharply than I wish to. The inner critic whispers: “Maybe you’re not good enough for the practice… You only manage it when it’s convenient and life feels easy.”

Relooking for Joy in the Precepts

So, when I start spiralling regarding my shortcomings and joy is scarce, patience and consistency are unlikely to follow.

This is when practice may grind to a halt. When you find yourself not enjoying the process, it’s time to step back and see what is hindering your joy. For me, taking that step back revealed certain unhelpful thought patterns and self-limiting beliefs.

One way I try to remove self-limiting beliefs is by discerning which thoughts are useful and which are not useful for progress. I do not have control over what thoughts pop into my head, but I can decide whether to give them my attention. Why believe them all, especially the unhelpful ones?

Lord Buddha, before he was enlightened, noticed the kinds of thoughts that came up in his mind. He saw that unwholesome thoughts cause harm to himself and others, while wholesome thoughts do not.

Thus, he made a habit of letting go of unwholesome thoughts and encouraging wholesome ones. As Buddha advised in MN 19: Bhikkhus (monks), “Whatever a mendicant (monk) frequently thinks about and considers becomes their heart’s inclination.” In the same way, I can watch my thoughts and ask whether they are helping or harming my motivation to grow in virtue.

The more often I ask this question, the more aware I become of which thoughts deserve to be nurtured and which can be let go.

You Are Not Your Worst Moments

What’s also helped is changing the label. It’s hard not to feel impatient if I’m hot, sweaty, stuck in a queue, being jostled, and assaulted by an array of body odours and unpleasant sounds. Stop labelling yourself, label the thought or feeling instead. Instead of “I’m impatient,” I say “Impatience is here.” It’s not who I am; it’s just passing through.

Think of it like a passing weather pattern. It isn’t “I am rain”, it is “rain is here”. Rain will come, stay for a while and cease. Don’t personalise it. The same goes for jealousy, irritation, or whatever emotion surges through in the moment.

The feeling will come, stay for a while and cease. When you stop equating yourself with your worst moment, space for choice opens. The choice to give yourself the benefit of the doubt, and to remember that you are not your negative thoughts and feelings.

Small Wins with Big Shifts

Developing confidence comes from not discarding the 5 Precepts when I ‘fail.’ Each time I act with integrity, however small, it’s proof that I can rise above my defilements. That is what truly builds confidence.

For instance, saying “Sorry I’m late, I didn’t manage my time properly” instead of “Sorry I’m late, traffic was bad”. Something within shifts. I realise that I’m not perfect, yet there is goodness in me that I can grow.

It reminds me that personal growth is built from countless small moments of choosing what is right, even after setbacks. If I want to be honest, I must keep speaking the truth repeatedly until it flows naturally from within. Temptation (from fear, habit, etc) will arise, but with practice, I become wiser at not falling for it.

When keeping the 5 Precepts feels like a chore, remember to recollect and celebrate your goodness. Motivation and consistency need fuel. Acknowledging even small acts of kindness or restraint helps keep the heart light.

Most days, doing a sharing of merit chant at the end of the day helps me to bring to mind all the goodness I have done or tried to do through the day. Buddha also taught Silanussati—meditation on one’s virtues—as a way to brighten the mind.

On “bad” days, I remind myself that the Buddha spent 45 years teaching the Dhamma because he saw that beings, including human beings, can overcome their defilements and awaken. If overcoming defilements were not possible for us regular folk, he would have simply “awakened and chilled.” You and I are good enough for the practice.

Struggles are not Failures

Struggles in keeping the 5 Precepts aren’t signs of failure. They show us where to grow. They’re data points – what have I done well, what can I do better in the future. The task isn’t to never stumble, but to get up each time with more self clarity instead of self criticism.

And through it all, remember that joy is part of the path; without it, our efforts soon run dry. Let virtue be your motivation as much as your goal.

Doing some chanting recently was a good reminder to myself:

Silena Sugatim Yanti (Virtue is the source of happiness)

Silena Bhogasampada (Virtue is the source of true wealth)

Silena Nibbutim Yanti (Virtue is the source of peacefulness)

Tasma Silam Visodhaye (Therefore let virtue be purified)

Wise steps

Catch the Inner Critic Early: Notice when perfectionism turns the Precepts into self-punishment. Pause, breathe, and remember the purpose of the Precepts is to guide, not condemn.
Label the Experience, Not the Self: Replace “I am bad” with “A difficult feeling is here.” This creates space between who you are and what you are experiencing, allowing kinder choices.
Reinforce Integrity Through Small Wins: Value even the smallest acts of honesty, kindness, and restraint. They are the building blocks of confidence and the proof of your capacity to grow in virtue.

The Sisters We Can’t Separate: A Zen Take on Duality

by Venerable Jian Xin | Sep 19, 2025 | Buddhist practice, Read, uncategorised

TL;DR：This reflective article explores a Zen koan from Chan Master Huang Long, highlighting the parable of the Heavenly Maiden of Virtue and the Maiden of Darkness to question our attachments to labels like “good” and “bad.” Through the author’s personal story of injury and unexpected growth, readers are invited to look beyond dualities and embrace life’s challenges as opportunities for deeper insight and spiritual freedom.

There is this ko’an that really set me contemplating…

One day, Chan Master Huang Long Hui Nan was giving a teaching:

“There is this person who reads the Avatamsaka Sutra in the day time and Prajnaparamita Sutra in the night time. Every day and night, he is very diligent.

“There is another person who does not meditate nor does he discuss the Dharma. In the day time, he will spread his ragged mat and sleep. These two people came together to visit me. Which of the two people is right?”

For a long while, no one answered.

Chan Master Huang Long then said, “Heavenly Maiden of Virtue and Maiden of Darkness, a wise person will not want both.”

The first person studies the sutras so diligently. Isn’t he an exemplar of a good practitioner? The second person sleeps all day and does not do any practice. Isn’t he a good-for-nothing?

But wait. Let us look deeper.

Could it be that this second person has attained great liberation? If he was not needed by others, he could choose to abide in a non-doing state. If he was needed, he would be right there.

So, who is right?

In this ko’an, Chan Master Huang Long used the parable of the Heavenly Maiden of Virtue and the Maiden of Darkness. Who are they?

The parable of the inseparable sisters

In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, there is an interesting story.

One day, a woman of otherworldly beauty visited a rich merchant’s house. The merchant curiously asked for her name and why she was here.

The beauty replied that she was called Heavenly Maiden of Virtue. Whoever she visited would obtain anything he wanted. The merchant was overjoyed and quickly hosted her.

Soon after, another woman came. This woman was extremely ugly-looking. She introduced herself as the Heavenly Maiden of Darkness. Whoever was visited by her would lose all his possessions. The merchant quickly asked her to leave his house.

Darkness then forewarned the merchant that it was silly of him to say that because she and the Heavenly Maiden of Virtue were sisters and they were always together.

To chase her out would mean to expel her sister, too. The merchant then made the decision that both should leave his house.

What would the wise do?

The average person would like the Heavenly Maiden of Virtue and dislike the Maiden of Darkness. The wise one would be able to go beyond likes and dislikes and transcend duality.

Master Huang Long used the parable of the two sisters to imply that the wise one will not be attached to the notion of the “good practitioner” in the case of the first person, or even to the notion of the “non-doing practitioner” in the case of the second person.

The wise is able to transcend opposites and differences. Therefore, he is free.

A blessing in disguise

Last year, I accidentally fractured my left foot, which confined me to a wheelchair and later to crutches for several months. This greatly impacted my mobility and caused significant inconvenience in my daily life. However, what seemed like a misfortune turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

The forced pause gave me precious quiet time for self-reflection, allowing me to deeply reconsider my life priorities and focus on what truly matters. This experience ultimately deepened my spiritual practice and contributed to my personal growth and transformation.

What initially appeared to be a setback became an opportunity for inner growth and positive changes.

As we journey into the rest of 2025 let us embrace the lessons learned from our experiences. Things that seem like challenges may be hidden blessings, reminding us not to be deluded by duality.

May we find wisdom in transcending notions of good and bad, and approach each moment with openness, gratitude, wisdom and compassion.

Wise Steps:

Pause Before Judgment – When faced with a situation or person, resist labeling it as good or bad. Take a moment to observe without clinging to immediate judgments.
Reflect on Stillness – Use quiet moments, even forced ones like illnesses or setbacks, to look inward and examine what truly matters in your life.
Embrace Wholeness – Understand that growth often comes through discomfort. Welcome both joy and hardship as integral to your journey toward inner freedom.

This is Goodbye

by Handful of Leaves | May 28, 2025 | Podcast

https://youtu.be/Wj91NtXblZg

Summary

In this heartfelt farewell episode, Kai Xin shares her personal journey of stepping away from Handful of Leaves to fully pursue her Dhamma practice. Together with Heng Xuan, they reflect on their four-year journey, from HOL’s humble beginnings during the pandemic to its growth into a vibrant Buddhist platform. They discuss the challenges of parting, the strength of their team, the community they’ve built and the vision that continues beyond her departure. It’s a candid, emotional conversation about purpose, legacy, practice and trusting in what’s to come.

About the Speakers

👤 Koh Kai Xin is a co-founder of HighSpark, a strategic communications consulting and training agency. She started her Dhamma journey at the age of 17 with Buddhist Fellowship Singapore and has been volunteering her time at various Buddhist organisations. She’s now a mentor under the SBM mentorship programme. Her perfect holiday is a long meditation retreat in the forest monasteries.

👤 Teo Heng Xuan works as a senior associate in an investment firm. He is also the co-founder of DAYWA, a community for young Buddhist working adults in Singapore & Handful Of Leaves, a popular Buddhist media platform that publishes insightful articles and a podcast series. He is also a mentor for the BFY youth group.

Transcript

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Kai Xin: I have made the decision to leave Handful of Leaves.

[00:00:03] Heng Xuan: I think we’ll shut this down ’cause like I really can’t do it.

[00:00:11] Heng Xuan: Hello. Hi. So in today’s podcast, this is where we are gonna say good goodbye.

[00:00:18] Kai Xin: So, to all our followers, I have made the decision to leave Handful of Leaves,

[00:00:24] Heng Xuan: and today’s video is gonna cover on why Kai Xin is leaving HOL. It’s not because she hates me, but more like (KX: for sure) her journey, forward, moving forward, out of HOL and what will HOL look like in the future? So in today’s podcast, we hope that we give you a better view of where HOL is going and the different ways that you can support us and support the growth of this growing community of Buddhist online content.

[00:00:51] Kai Xin: Yeah. So this is kind of my exit interview and he’s gonna roast me with questions. Let’s go.

[00:00:58] Heng Xuan: Yeah, so for context, we are actually sitting right outside the Buddha Tooth Relic temple right now. You can see it’s reddish behind us and there’ll be people walking in and out. Just shows you how popular this temple is, but we thought this is a fitting location, given how it’s kind of like a holy place in Singapore and it’s very central. Highly encouraged you guys to visit here. The vegetarian food at B1 is super good.

[00:01:18] Kai Xin: Yeah. Let’s get rolling with the first question.

Beginnings of HOL

[00:01:26] Heng Xuan: So just a recap on how we first started HOL. You can always check out the video at the end of this video on the whole journey somewhere. But essentially it was COVID period. Wanted to kind of build a directory so that people know where to go during Vesak and on a deeper level, it was because there is no online platform to kind of like capture stories of different practitioners from our time. So just about providing practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life.

Why was Kai Xin the right partner for HOL?

[00:02:03] Heng Xuan: In short, how do I know Kai Xin’s the right person? Because I’ve been working with her many, many Dhamma projects and

[00:02:08] Kai Xin: yeah.

[00:02:08] Heng Xuan: Yeah. I knew like there’s one person that could do this with me and keep my blind spots in check. That will be Kai Xin. Yeah. So that’s, that’s, that’s why Kai Xin, long story short. Yeah.

Initial Vision for HOL

[00:02:25] Kai Xin: Oh. I remember our first conversation. It wasn’t like, okay, let’s build this together, like HOL. It was more, I think you were asking me whether I knew anyone who would be able to do something for Vesak directory. Yeah. Or like you wanna consolidate, you know, like Vesak events. And then I kind of got quite excited with ideas and then we had very deep conversation about the gaps in the buddhist scene. So from there, I think both of us had a shared vision that we really want there to be a digital presence, at least for the local community and just make Buddhism more accessible. Because usually when you are introduced to Buddhism through a Buddhist center by a friend, you have to go through all the rituals and nobody might actually tell you what you’re doing and it can be quite intimidating.

[00:03:14] Kai Xin: So I think we wanna make it easy for people to explore. And not go through like website that look completely outdated. And yeah, I think the, the vision is really practical Buddhist wisdom for a happier life and making it very relatable, which is why we share stories and yeah, we are very glad that we hold true to that vision till today.

[00:03:35] Heng Xuan: Yeah. It has been four years,

[00:03:39] Kai Xin: Wow. Yes. Four years. It’s been four years.

Favourite memory of HOL

[00:03:50] Kai Xin: Well, I have no, I have no real favorite memory per se. Okay. You go first. I, I can’t.

[00:04:03] Heng Xuan: I don’t think there is like a definite, like favorite memory. But I think it was when Kai Xin shared with me that some random person is like using HOL as a material for, you know, teaching Dhamma school. Yeah, I think that, I think that for me is a favourite memory of like kind of achieving stuff together, not… less, less of working together.

[00:04:24] Heng Xuan: ‘Cause actually we work a lot, a lot online, so we don’t really have that moment of like working at a laptop and then like working late that kind of crazy stuff, but it’s actually been very much asynchronous. So for me, that’s my favorite memory. Like I can say, Hey, someone in this country using a material for like Dhamma classes.

[00:04:42] Kai Xin: It was Malaysia actually.

[00:04:43] Heng Xuan: Yeah, it was Malaysia. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So to me, I think that’s memorable. It felt like for the first time, I’m not just like producing content for like my friends and family to say Good job.

[00:04:53] Kai Xin: Yeah. Right. Oh, I think I know. Not so much favorite but definitely memorable. We had our first gathering and I was really, really shocked and heartened by the faces that I’ve not seen before because being in the Buddhist scene for so long, you pretty much know everyone because we kind of just rotate, right?

[00:05:15] Kai Xin: Like we go to the center and then we go to that center when there’s good talk, a good teacher in town, and being able to see new faces and people who genuinely found us through the internet or through say their friends or friends who shared a particular link, and then they started following us to then want to show up in person to check out, you know, what we actually do and to contribute ideas so that we can continue growing.

[00:05:37] Kai Xin: I thought that was pretty amazing. And there was a comment made by one of the attendees. He said, wow, I thought I was alone. I didn’t know that there are so many young Buddhists out there and what, there’s a community? And he was genuinely quite happy.

[00:05:52] Kai Xin: So I feel that we have done an amazing job in terms of connecting people. And again, it fits through the vision, not just making it accessible, but also having that, that community to support you through this journey. I think it’s something that is completely priceless.

[00:06:09] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Why are you stepping down from HOL?

[00:06:17] Kai Xin: So I have decided last year, somewhere mid last year, that I would like to step down from HOL. It was not a difficult decision, but also not an easy one per se. Difficult for me to actually tell him. And I suppose some people would think that I have an option to juggle my practice as well as HOL, but it was quite obvious when there are times where I meditate, yeah, and it is true, I, I would start thinking about ideas, HOL. And I think there’s another part as well. I see a very big difference in the passion and the drive. In the past I might have a lot of drive to really wanna slog it out to make an idea work, to build something. And a lot of times it’s at the expense of my formal practice in terms of time to meditate.

[00:07:12] Kai Xin: But then slowly, more and more, I just feel it’s not something that I’m willing to trade for anymore. It’s possible to find that balance, but knowing my character, it’s tough to try to do both things well at the same time. And I keep thinking about how I have access to great teachers, really, really well practiced teachers. And they’re not getting younger, younger as the Dhamma way of life. Yeah, people age and I, I too age, my parents also age, so it was quite sobering for me to reflect what do I wanna do moving forward? And I figured that money can be earned back. But time, once it’s lost, health, once it’s lost, I, I can’t get it back.

[00:07:57] Kai Xin: And this seems to be the golden window opportunity for me to just go all in into practice. And to understand how the mind works, to understand how all this enlightened masters and how the Buddha did it, to realize what they have realized. I wanna give it a fair chance, a fair shot. So I think that shift in drive, shift in focus was the main thing that pushed me to say, yeah, I don’t think it’s gonna work out.

What led to your decision to deepen your practice?

[00:08:28] Kai Xin: I, I remember quite clearly I was in an apartment. So for the good part of last year, I’ve been, I rented an apartment close to a monastery in Thailand and I wanted to deepen my practice. You know, staying close to a monastery. I can have the lifestyle of going there daily to practice in the morning, and then I learn a bit of Thai in the afternoon and do some HOL work, do some of my day job work remotely.

[00:08:53] Kai Xin: It got to a point where I remember I was working. And then I’m like, actually, what, what am I doing? I, I just suddenly felt this deep sense of I’m wasting my time and it’s very difficult for me to be doing everything all at once well. Yeah, and it, it’s not that I don’t like what I do at HOL, I love what I do and I I love all of you followers.

[00:09:17] Kai Xin: Just that in terms of, in terms of wasting time, I think there’s a deeper calling in terms of– there’s a deeper calling to want to devote my youth while I’m still healthy and able to the practice. Yeah. And formal practice specifically. Yeah. And it was slightly difficult, more to a sense where I feel selfish for doing so, but then there was a clear voice in me that told me that, Hey, actually I have been contributing to the community ever since I knew Dhamma.

[00:09:51] Kai Xin: I don’t think I have any regrets. And it’s time to start taking care of myself so that perhaps in the future I would be able to contribute in other ways or maybe through my own realization, the contribution can be deeper and more meaningful. So yeah, that’s where I kind of texted him, that was in a monastery when I was having a self-retreat. It’s like, oh yeah, by the way, I had this thought. Yeah.

How did you take the news of Kai Xin’s departure?

[00:10:23] Heng Xuan: I think it came in like waves, right? So like, I think I was like, okay, I’m gonna move to Thailand. Then I was like, I okay, okay I need to get over that. I can’t keep like meeting her in person or like, whatever. Right? So then there’s the sense of like getting over the initial loss of a friend that’s like in the vicinity and loss of like someone that you can actually meet in person. So I think that I was getting over that, that, that I was like, okay, but Kai Xin’s going like, work, work even more for HOL and like, you know, ’cause she, she was like, transitioning and like moving out the Singapore way of life and stuff. And, and then the Whatsapp came and I was like, oh my God, I can’t. I was just like, oh no.

[00:11:00] Heng Xuan: Like I can’t, can’t like do this alone. ’cause I think it’s just like you have always been able to bounce ideas and then now it’s like there’s this sudden like impending loss, I guess. The ability to like kind of just call a person at my whim and fancy and just ask random questions or like just have a certain person that you can bounce ideas with. I think definitely sad, but also at a certain extent felt happy. You’re going to Nibanna faster man, I hope.

[00:11:27] Kai Xin: Yes. I need the blessings.

[00:11:28] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So it is that feeling, that bittersweet feeling, right? Like you’ll know that it’s the best thing for, for her as a practioner and as a Dhamma friend. Like that’s the best thing. But at the same time, there’s this loss that, well, this person is like super contributive to the Dhamma world, and she’s no longer gonna be like really there, like physically not there already. And then now it’s like virtually also not there. So I think like it was, it was really tough. Like I, I, I won’t shy away from it that I, I even told her like, I think, I think we’ll shut this down ’cause like, I really can’t do it. Like,

[00:12:00] Kai Xin: and I was like, no man, you know.

[00:12:03] Heng Xuan: I kind of like managed to go to Malaysia at that time. And I just like meditated in a Dhamma hall facing the Buddha and just like wondering, wow, what, what is the way forward? And then I was so like, full of emotions. First time I just like cry in front of the Buddha statue. I’m like, wah.

[00:12:19] Kai Xin: Oh, I didn’t know you cried.

[00:12:20] Heng Xuan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then my, my, my Dhamma friend like took a picture of that. But he didn’t know I was crying la. But it’s quite. But I just had to reflect on like what is best moving forward, like, and all the self-limiting beliefs that I might have, thinking that I can’t do it myself, but actually as a team and, and it’s about bringing the team forward also as well. ‘Cause HOL is more than me and Kai Xin, but really the community, the contributors that move it forward. For me, that’s, I think, quite a low point, but I think it’s like you also feel happy.

[00:12:49] Heng Xuan: Yeah. So a bit weird, yes.

[00:12:52] Kai Xin: Separation brings despair.

[00:12:54] Heng Xuan: Yes. Lamentation.

[00:12:57] Kai Xin: Well I didn’t, I really didn’t know. I think he needs a lot of assurance, so please comment and say in the chat.

[00:13:06] Kai Xin: So his wife is like this little bird that will come and tell me things, right? Yeah. And I kind of know that I knew that you were not taking it well. Um. But then I had to keep reiterating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it, I mean, you’re not doing this alone. We have a team and we have a very capable team, and in fact, I’m only doing this little bit. Yeah. So I think HOL would move on and will go on, to greater heights without me

[00:13:35] Heng Xuan: and us eventually.

[00:13:38] Kai Xin: Yeah. And if, if we are able to do that, that’s actually a really good sign because we are. I mean, the ability to decouple ourself from the organization and not having it rely a hundred percent fully, I think this is where legacies are built, right?

[00:13:53] Kai Xin: So I think over the years we have built a lot of SOPs. We have, you know, built a great team, brought in different type of skill sets and talent. Like the lady who is sitting behind the camera right now, You Shan, who’s leading the design and illustration team. And we have got many new initiatives and pillars and more people are joining us as volunteers as well.

[00:14:17] Kai Xin: So things are just gonna be exciting. And I always know that when a chapter closes, another would open. And really, you don’t know what would unfold from this. Yeah. So don’t limit yourself to thinking that HOL has to be with me or be with you. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:14:33] Heng Xuan: yeah.

[00:14:34] Kai Xin: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Heng Xuan: Yeah, she’s provided very good assurance.

[00:14:38] Kai Xin: So we are not shutting down if you continue to subscribe.

How is HOL adapting to this change?

[00:14:50] Kai Xin: We, we do have some, you know, handover plans and certain concrete guidelines or concrete steps in order to achieve that.

[00:14:57] Heng Xuan: I think in slowly having the incremental team coming together, and building out the different pillars of HOL is something that we long time overdue and having that in place was crucial to balance our mission and her transition out.

[00:15:10] Heng Xuan: So having amazing people joining our team, to support different ops, I think that was crucial in giving me a bit more confidence on where we are going.

[00:15:20] Kai Xin: Yeah, I think we also had a discussion about what are some fears and things that would create anxiety with me not being around and then working backwards from there. To say, okay, how can this not be a factor of fear? So I think there are a lot of different initiatives that we’re trying. And, to be honest, from an operational side of thing, there’s another vision about being financially sustainable, which we are still, honestly, quite far from it.

[00:15:50] Heng Xuan: Taking baby steps.

[00:15:51] Kai Xin: Yeah, baby steps. And we wanna also assure our followers that we would never commercialize Dhamma. We are experimenting with different ways as to how we would be able to either offer products or service or different things where you might pay in a professional sense or in a non Dhamma aspect. But if we were to add a Dhamma angle to make it more wholesome, would that work?

[00:16:16] Kai Xin: And we wanna keep our content free as usual, so that people would be able to access, and any bonus would or might have a price tag to it. So also hope to seek followers understanding when we do try out something that our promise to you is we would wanna stay true to the Dhamma, but you can feel free to call us out if you feel uncomfortable with certain things that the, the team is moving towards. And we need, I mean, HOL needs people to keep the team accountable. Yeah. Yeah.

What made you confident about your decision to leave?

[00:16:55] Kai Xin: I think there is, there are two aspects to this. The first one is that I don’t feel irresponsible that with my departure, the entire team would have to carry like the burden of this void. Then the other aspect is more, in personal capacity. So in terms of HOL, I’ve been seeing team members contributing amazing work and there are times where I can go on retreat where I don’t have to be contacted at all.

[00:17:23] Kai Xin: And things are just, you know, going as per usual, that brought a lot of confidence to say that hey, actually, with, without my presence, the operations would still continue. And it might not… I mean, HOL might not necessarily accelerate in terms of its growth, but at least it can continue to stay business as usual and still continue to benefit people from what it has already been doing well.

[00:17:50] Kai Xin: From a personal front, I think there are a couple of things. So, first is definitely my progress in terms of the practice. I, I feel confident, a little bit more in myself that, yeah, this is the path that I, I foresee myself, taking. And I, I don’t think I wanna back out from it. The second part is, of course, financially there needs to be some practical calculations.

[00:18:17] Kai Xin: Not to say that I’m like super rich, but enough for me to sustain a lifestyle, to focus on practice fully. Why that cough? I found a community in Thailand. And I feel very, very supported and everyone is very encouraging. I feel very inspired by their practice as well with good teachers. So it checked many boxes and the big question is just like, why wait? Like what am I waiting for? Yeah.

Are you REALLY gone?

[00:18:53] Kai Xin: So I’ve discussed with Heng Xuan that me stepping down would mean that I would no longer be involved in the operation side of things, and this means no meetings with them, no discussing, brainstorming, strategizing the future for HOL, no building stuff at all. So I would be completely hands off here, and the team has requested that I, once in a while, if there is a need for a sounding board to be contactable via call. I’ve, yeah, I, I’ve agreed, yeah, to that. In terms of frequency, hopefully not every other day.

[00:19:33] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s kind of like a stop-gap measure, right? So if, let’s say, the team gets too crazy, like, let’s say, selling soft toys, then I think then we all like consult Kai Xin and then she’ll like, get your head screwed on.

[00:19:46] Kai Xin: Yeah. I mean, it’s not a terrible idea to sell soft toys.

[00:19:49] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:50] Kai Xin: But if anything that goes against the Dhamma, I’ll be, yeah, I’ll be the first to be very vocal about it.

[00:19:55] Heng Xuan: Yeah. So I think it’s just having that, keeping the lines open and agreeing, like keeping that sense of balance in check. ’cause sometimes it… we can be too stuck in the funnel and just keep tunnel visioning into something that may not align to our vision.

[00:20:08] Kai Xin: Yeah. Yeah. So you won’t see me at meetups anymore. I’m sorry.

[00:20:12] Heng Xuan: Sawadikap.

What would you miss most?

[00:20:21] Heng Xuan: Good riddance. No lah.

[00:20:23] Kai Xin: I don’t know. I, I think I’ve gotten to a stage where I try not to miss anything because there’s this, there’s this sense of attachment, right? When you miss something, when you miss something. But innately I get very excited building things. I, I like to build, I like to experiment. And of course, not experimenting alone, but bouncing it off with the team and then being able to, you know, see it from an idea to something tangible, to then getting feedback, positive feedback from the users.

[00:20:57] Kai Xin: If I have to choose something that would be something I miss. But yeah, it’s something that I have to let go as well because it strokes your ego where you receive praise and you receive the kind of validation that, hey, you know, this thing is working. Yeah. So letting go of that.

[00:21:13] Heng Xuan: Things that I’ll miss working directly with Kai Xin, I think would be the times where she says, I have a different way of looking at this, and that usually is Kai Xin’s way of saying, I disagree. Yeah. Yeah. I think having, having that, that person that openly disagrees with you is something I’ll miss. Second is I know I cannot build, in terms of technical skills, build as well as she does.

[00:21:36] Heng Xuan: So I think that’s something I’ll miss, like having that someone that you know will partner you to build something that’s pretty much crazy but possible. Like we, we build a t-shirt business out of nowhere.

[00:21:48] Kai Xin: Not, not part of HOL,

[00:21:49] Heng Xuan: not part of HOL

[00:21:49] Kai Xin: just in case you’re wondering, we’re selling T-shirts.

[00:21:52] Heng Xuan: Yeah. Yeah. So we had our own like t-shirt brand and we built out nothing. So I think like we did many random things together and I think that’s something I’ll miss, that, that, that sense of like spontaneity, that allows you to, just grow into whatever challenges that you see and you just grab and you just build, you solve it, and you just keep moving on. So I think it’s something I’ll miss. Like, not having the sounding board and not having that, that Bob the builder right next to me. Yeah.

What do you think has been the impact of your partnership?

[00:22:25] Kai Xin: I don’t know. You tell us in the comments.

[00:22:28] Heng Xuan: I think one of it is like beyond HOL is, is serving the Buddhist community, building youth groups at the same time also trying to bring Buddhist organizations more digital first. I think these are like different projects that we have done together, but I think on a deeper level is giving people the opportunity to learn the Dhamma and seeing practitioners like sprout out nowhere, through the different efforts that we have, I think that’s something like money cannot buy.

[00:22:54] Heng Xuan: Like I would imagine ourselves 10 years back the community that we had, to today, the number of people practicing the Dhamma, understanding what’s meditation retreats. I think that’s something that’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, immeasurable.

[00:23:07] Kai Xin: This is recency effect because just not too long ago there, there was a Dhamma brother who reached out and asked who, you know, put this together and whether they could ask for some inputs as to how we put together HOL and some lessons that we have learned. Then we realized that the questions actually came from a very reputable venerable in Malaysia.

[00:23:31] Heng Xuan: Senior. Yeah. Very senior venerable.

[00:23:33] Kai Xin: Yeah. Who is also trying to build young Buddhist community. I think that’s a very big gap in this area. So having signs like this that people look up to HOL or use us as a benchmark, even though, to be honest, we are not like the best or the most perfect, but at least there are some learning points that they can draw from in order to benefit their community.

[00:23:55] Kai Xin: I think that is something that is pretty amazing. And just showing what, showing, just showing people what is possible. I think for too often, too long, over the years before HOL, there were a lot of talks on ideas. We always go for these forums, this symposium to brainstorm on the next ideas and I think one thing I’m really appreciative is actually, like Heng Xuan being a very reliable partner because like for us it is like, okay, let’s not just talk. Let’s do it. And it’s very difficult to find people who is willing to put in the, the effort to actually make it work and not just, you know, say only.

[00:24:32] Kai Xin: So I hope that through our journey we have shown people that this is possible and kind of encourage them to get started. Don’t think so much, just just do and just keep it reiterating. Yeah. And just keep experimenting and see what’s there.

[00:24:47] Heng Xuan: Just fail fast. Learn fast. Yeah. And, and just have your vision in mind. But, I think oftentimes people both keep looking at me and Kai Xin’s impact right. But, it’s also important to reflect that we are also dependent on like many different generations of teachers that the teachings pass through to reach us today. So don’t just look at us like, wow. Very big and stuff like that.

[00:25:10] Heng Xuan: I, I think, important to know that we are literally just the moon and the moon reflects the light of the sun. That’s what Ajahn Jayasaro says. And the sun is the Buddha. So yeah. Always remember that.

[00:25:21] Kai Xin: Yeah. And that whatever we do, there’s a ripple effect. In fact, like for me, if there isn’t website, like Access to Insight by Venerable Thanissaro, where I can easily access sutta, discourses of the Buddha, I wouldn’t be able to deepen my Dhamma understanding and knowledge. So whatever we have today actually sits on previous generation of work, be it whether it’s online or offline. So yeah, just keep sharing, provided that you have tested it for yourself and you know that what you’re sharing, it’s, you know, aligned with the Dhamma. Just keep practicing doing good work.

What excites you most about this new chapter?

[00:26:05] Kai Xin: I am not really excited about anything, nor am I really looking forward. I think I’m just taking things one step at a time, and as it comes, life will be pretty boring ’cause I’ll be doing the same routine every day. I suppose I would just keep putting in the effort and, maybe what excites me is to be closer to the Buddha in a sense where I get to practice what he teach.

[00:26:28] Kai Xin: And I think that’s the closest distance you can get to him. Right? Yeah. And by putting my best effort to realize the teachings. Recently we did an interview with Ryan, who, our, our friend, Dhamma friend Ryan, who is now a monk. And when I asked him how he felt. I think it encapsulate how I feel as well and the word is “relief”.

[00:26:51] Kai Xin: And he explained because this is something that he is been wanting to do for such a long time, and he finally is able to put things down and don on the robes. I, I’m, I’m not gonna don on the robes, just a disclaimer. But I, yeah, I, I think instead of excitement, it’s just this sense of relief to say like, oh, it’s finally here.

[00:27:08] Kai Xin: Because for such a long time, even when I first started working, people ask me how’s work? And the answer would always be, it’s great. But then there’s this lingering thing that I, I’m not sure what it is, but something just feels off from the center point, like from the true North and yeah. Now things just feel in place like it’s aligned finally. So it’s not boring.

You Shan: What’s the boring routine?

[00:27:33] Kai Xin: Boring routine. So you would pretty much wake up 4:00 AM in the day, monks wake up at 3:00 AM. 5:00 AM chanting. And then you help out with chores, sweep the leaves, clean the tables, and then there will be almsround You can help out with that as well. There’ll be more chanting in the morning at about eight o’clock.

[00:27:54] Kai Xin: Have your main meal. We only eat once a, once a day. One main meal a day. You have pretty much the whole day to yourself until 3:00 PM chores again. And then in a monastery that I’m in, 7:15 PM it is another evening chanting session. Yeah. And every day it’s just the same. There might be projects in between

[00:28:15] Heng Xuan: and festivals.

[00:28:16] Kai Xin: Festivals, yeah. Which, when the monastery can get really busy, we’ll have to do with cleaning and yeah. Like planning, organizing. Yeah. I guess the only difference is if you’ll meet different people maybe on a daily basis, because people come and go, our visitors and retreatants. Yeah.

[00:28:32] Heng Xuan: So I think what excites me most is the expanding reach that HOL is having and having more people on board. Contributors that join the team would ensure that we bring even more human capital into the Buddhist world. And where I’m excited at one of the different ideas is to upskill the Buddhist community to get even better at doing what they do.

[00:28:52] Heng Xuan: And I believe that HOL will be well positioned to help that. Other areas would include exploring new formats to reach people. And already we do see many different people coming to Dhamma through different articles, through different videos and podcasts. So for me, I think that remains a really exciting area for us to keep experimenting because the moment you stop experimenting then it’s like you’re not trying.

[00:29:16] Heng Xuan: So it’s, I’m looking forward to more failures, kind of. Yeah. And, and just keep learning, like we said, no to merchandise, but like maybe that’s gonna come out for us. So for me, that’s what excites, is to never say never and just keep exploring where things go and meeting super cool people, like that are joining our team. I don’t shout out individually, but like yeah. You know who you are. Yeah. You all know who you are and really talented in what you do.

How will your friendship evolve?

[00:29:40] Kai Xin: We’ll still be friends. I’ll still be kind of contactable, just not as accessible for me, I think it’s a big question mark because it’s never the same or never gonna be the same as compared to you being able to meet up, you know, chat over meal and bounce off ideas.

[00:30:06] Heng Xuan: I think I have to meet her in Thailand, so I have to go Thailand. I think it’s just, I mean your friendships on maintenance mode, just like when I go Thailand then I’ll see her. And somehow I just keep going to Thailand. I dunno why, but yeah.

Words of wisdom for the team and future contributors?

[00:30:23] Kai Xin: What advice? What wisdom? Wisdom. Oh wow. Wisdom. Even worse, I don’t have any innate wisdom, so I have to lean to the Buddhist words. I think one thing that never fails so far based on my own experience is to use the three poison as yard sticks. It gets a little tricky when we wanna embark on a new initiative because you might not know whether it is fulfilling your alter ego.

[00:30:51] Kai Xin: Is it serving the community? It could be, but there can also be a very fine line or a trace of unwholesome. Because I think financial sustainability is always very tricky, and that’s like a hurdle that we are trying to cross as HOL collectively. So greed, hatred and delusion. These are the three poisons.

[00:31:09] Kai Xin: If we can, the team can kind of check against this to see what is the level of greed, hatred, and delusion. Delusion is hard to to check, so have someone keep the team accountable. I think pretty much the team will do. Okay. Yeah. ’cause the last thing that personally I would want for any Buddhist organization is to go off path when we might start off with a very wholesome intention, with a wholesome vision, but, you know, we get blinded by all of this, blinded by our own defilements. So yeah, have that as the yardstick. I think that would be the safest bet. Not, not really a bet, but a safest route. So words of the Buddha.

Final words to each other

[00:31:58] Heng Xuan: It is kind of sort of the end, but not the end of a journey that we have been embarking since we were 17.

[00:32:06] Kai Xin: Wow. Yeah, wow.

[00:32:07] Heng Xuan: Like it has been, yeah, it has been a good like 15 years working together and things are gonna change. It’s going to, it’s just gonna be different. We’re not gonna build stuff together anymore.

[00:32:17] Heng Xuan: So I think that’s really different, but I just wanna thank you for all the random shit that we have done together, like for the past 15 years, which is like almost half of our life, like almost half our lifetimes. Right. Just doing projects together. So, yeah, I just wanna say I could think of no better person than to build this entire ecosystem with together. So thank you.

[00:32:36] Kai Xin: I’m getting emotional. How can I hug you? Aw, you know, the first episode of podcast I cried too, because Cheryl made me cry. Yeah, I mean, I’m very appreciative. Yeah, I, I don’t know. I always feel like there’s a lot that you can do as a person and like for to you individually, apart from all the thanks, is, is really, you don’t necessarily have to take everything on your shoulder by yourself.

[00:33:10] Kai Xin: I think sometimes it seems scary because it can feel like you’re walking alone. Mm-hmm. But you have people around to support and even though you’re great at doing a lot of things, often better than others, sometimes it’s okay to lean on others even though they might not necessary, be it the a hundred percent, you know, level.

[00:33:31] Kai Xin: Yeah. ’cause when you have a community, you have many, maybe like 75% of people, and that way surpass a hundred percent in the, as an individual. So don’t be too hard on yourself and you don’t always have to be productive. It’s okay to sometimes, you know, go on a break. Yeah. And not think about HOL. Give yourself permission that, give yourself permission to do that.

[00:33:54] Kai Xin: And yeah, don’t always have to, yeah, do things for others. I know you do a lot of things for yourself, but, at the back of your head you’re like, Hey, how can I milk this? Yes. For HOL, for DAYWA, for whatever, you know, initiative and just, you know, productivity kind of guy, but it’s okay to not be productive sometimes. Yeah. And just let your mind rest. Aw. Are you crying?

[00:34:23] Kai Xin: But I am really thankful. So I kind of feel like we have been doing, we’ve been like been doing this, contributing to Dhamma for like multiple lifetimes. Yeah. So for me,

[00:34:35] Heng Xuan: see you for seven more lifetimes.

[00:34:37] Kai Xin: Yeah. This is not really goodbye. You’ll still see me, come to Thailand. Give you an excuse, a reason to come to Thailand for retreat. Yeah.

[00:34:52] Kai Xin: Like, subscribe, support.

[00:34:58] Heng Xuan: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s really it, like contribute our efforts and contribute our skills. Okay. Take that again. So, like, subscribe and share this video. But jokes aside, I think contribute your skills. If you feel like there’s something that you always wanted to try, experiment, just try out.

[00:35:16] Heng Xuan: Just reach out to us and share with us, like, why do you think this is a fit for HOL? We’ll work something out. I think we are always looking for people with the skill sets and expertise to bring things forward. Oftentimes we put a hundred percent of our work life energy right into just our careers. But why not put a bit of that percentage of that innovation, that knowledge into serving the Dhamma? And I think that will bring immense benefits.

[00:35:40] Kai Xin: And as you talk about financial sustainability, we, the team is, is really bootstrapping. We’ve just recently hired or experimented with hiring a full-time content editor, not so sure about how this experiment goes, but if we have the capital we can, or the team has more room to play around with ideas and to execute on certain things. So if you have been benefiting so far, it would really, really benefit not just the team, but the entire community, because the team is not doing this for the team’s sake.

[00:36:12] Kai Xin: We are doing this for everyone’s sake. So yeah, go to the Patreon or sponsorship page to see which one kind of appeals to you? Mm. I think beyond supporting through monetary means, of course, it, it’s really supporting through your practice, by being a good practitioner. It really has an immense effect to the people around you.

[00:36:35] Kai Xin: People will start feeling like, Hey, something is different about this. Like, oh, I read HOL article, oh, because of HOL you know, I go for this retreat and stuff. So work on yourself. Yeah. And that’s like the best marketing and publicity one can do for Buddhism. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:48] Heng Xuan: Yeah. I always say don’t be the proverbial like auntie who says they do the Metta chanting then after that hit and kill the mosquito. Don’t, don’t be that person. Right. Just go and practice. Be a impact. Fly the flag of the Buddha way, way, way high. And I think that would be crazy, crazy good to this world.

[00:37:07] Kai Xin: Yeah. And for yourself too, in case you don’t make it this lifetime, next lifetime dhamma will still be around.

[00:37:11] Heng Xuan: We hope that you enjoy this series on exploring why Kai Xin is saying goodbye.

[00:37:16] Kai Xin: Yeah. And

[00:37:17] Heng Xuan: we will see you soon.

[00:37:19] Kai Xin: All the best to everybody. May you stay happy and and wise.

Special thanks to our sponsors:

Buddhist Youth Network, Lim Soon Kiat, Alvin Chan, Tan Key Seng, Soh Hwee Hoon, Geraldine Tay, Venerable You Guang, Wilson Ng, Diga, Joyce, Tan Jia Yee, Joanne, Suñña, Shuo Mei, Arif, Bernice, Wee Teck, Andrew Yam, Kan Rong Hui, Wei Li Quek, Shirley Shen, Ezra, Joanne Chan, Hsien Li Siaw, Gillian Ang, Wang Shiow Mei, Ong Chye Chye, Melvin, Yoke Kuen, Nai Kai Lee, Amelia Toh, Hannah Law, Shin Hui Chong

Editor and Transcriber of this episode:

Tan Si Jing, Ang You Shan, Bernice Bay

Visual and Sound Effects

Anton Thorne, Tan Pei Shan, Ang You Shan

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